Author Topic: Cato's Grammar Grumble  (Read 555546 times)

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DavidW

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #800 on: September 16, 2009, 03:52:14 AM »
He's probably going to say "is this about DavidW?"  Sigh... ;D

ChamberNut

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #801 on: September 16, 2009, 03:57:06 AM »
The thing I struggle with the most is the apostrophe.  :-[

karlhenning

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #802 on: September 16, 2009, 04:01:29 AM »
The thing I struggle with the most is the apostrophe.  :-[

Man, I had a friend who was an English major who had frank trouble with its VS. it's  :o

Offline owlice

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #803 on: September 16, 2009, 04:22:53 AM »
Whatever happened to healthful? One doesn't eat healthily if one is eating a nutritious diet, but does eat healthfully by doing so, yes?

Food is not healthy -- well, it can be, in that an apple doesn't have apple rust or some other apple disease is healthy -- but is healthful if by its consumption, it promotes good health in the consumer, correct?

Or was my mother wrong?

karlhenning

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #804 on: September 16, 2009, 04:27:37 AM »
"Conducive to good health: healthful" is indeed one reading of healthy.

Online Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #805 on: September 16, 2009, 04:27:47 AM »
Cato, my neurons are slow this morning, or I should think I might find other examples of verb followed by adjective, as subtly distinct from verb modified by adverb.

Any enlightenment? Up to and including, you're just plain wrong, Karl  ;)

Interesting: "Eat healthy..." would be obvious as meaning "Eat healthy food."

Without the 3 dots one must make a better effort to realize that "food" is understood, and that "healthy" does not modify "eat."

"Healthily" indeed is an adverb and you are quite right, despite slow neurons.   ;D

"Healthfully" also works: one must decide which word has the better music.   0:)




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karlhenning

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #806 on: September 16, 2009, 04:36:39 AM »
Separately (and I may have grumbled about this before) . . . I've seen a sign use the phrase beyond comparison, which had the look of someone "correcting" the (native) phrase beyond compare, because how can you have a verb follow a preposition, sheesh?!

Online Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #807 on: September 16, 2009, 05:37:14 AM »
Separately (and I may have grumbled about this before) . . . I've seen a sign use the phrase beyond comparison, which had the look of someone "correcting" the (native) phrase beyond compare, because how can you have a verb follow a preposition, sheesh?!

My Random House dictionary lists (under the 7th meaning) "compare" as a late medieval noun, so everything is just fine!   8)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

karlhenning

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #808 on: September 16, 2009, 05:46:40 AM »
A noun, without fail  ;D

Franco

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #809 on: September 16, 2009, 05:54:52 AM »
Quote
The thing I struggle with the most is the apostrophe. 

Strunk & White have the rule on the use of a possessive apostrophe:  's is always used.  Even for names ending with an "s" - although ever since I can remember I was taught to not add the 's with names like Davis. 

E.g.:

Wrong: Miles Davis' 1970s fusion records are not universally loved. 
Correct: Miles Davis's 1970s fusion records are not universally loved.

What say you?

Online Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #810 on: September 16, 2009, 06:05:41 AM »
Strunk & White have the rule on the use of a possessive apostrophe:  's is always used.  Even for names ending with an "s" - although ever since I can remember I was taught to not add the 's with names like Davis. 

E.g.:

Wrong: Miles Davis' 1970s fusion records are not universally loved. 
Correct: Miles Davis's 1970s fusion records are not universally loved.

What say you?

Cato says: NO!   $:)

I hate the way it looks!   >:D  I agree that it matches the sound of the possessive, when a name ends in "s", but orthographically I think it looks ugly.

And "1970s" should have an apostrophe: 1970's.

Mr. Apostrophe I am sure will agree!   0:)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Franco

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #811 on: September 16, 2009, 06:17:40 AM »
Cato says: NO!   $:)

I hate the way it looks!   >:D  I agree that it matches the sound of the possessive, when a name ends in "s", but orthographically I think it looks ugly.

And "1970s" should have an apostrophe: 1970's.

Mr. Apostrophe I am sure will agree!   0:)

Yes, but on page 1 in Strunk he says otherwise:

Quote
1. Form the possessive singular nouns by adding 's.
Follow this rule whatever the final consonant.  Thus write,

Charles's friend
Burns's poems
the witch's malice

Exceptions are the possessive of ancient proper names in -es and -is ...

Does look odd - but is the correct way to do it.  At least according to S&W.

Offline The Six

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #812 on: September 16, 2009, 06:30:58 AM »
Concerning the question mark for: "I wonder where he went?"

As explained above, yes, the question mark is wrong.  This is an indirect question.  All you need is a period.  The direct question would be: "Where did he go?"


I really don't mind that because the question mark has come to be used to indicate inflection. It's used that way in Japan, for example, like this: "It's just a joke, so don't worry about it?"

Online Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #813 on: September 16, 2009, 06:52:01 AM »
I do, but there is the exception of Greek names (e.g., Achilles' heel). Coincidence, just last week I set up a friend, who is an editor, by asking him how to handle the apostrophe for names ending in s, and he, of course, agreed with you and me and he also gave the standard Greek exception.

Hooked!

Then I asked him the one I really wonder about: Descartes.

Stumped him too. Not a problem in French, but I haven't found it formally addressed for how to treat it in English.

Any takers?
'

Sure!

Like I said, I use only an apostrophe in such cases, so Descartes' Books would be the only indication you would need for a genitive ("Day carts").

You could avoid the problem: the books of Descartes.

Cato does not have a grammar book published with his name on it, but he finds that irrelevant!   0:)   Sister Claude  0:)   said just to use the ' and so - since she  0:)   was Sister Claude  0:)   and ipso facto on a higher level than Strunk, etc. - that is what I use!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

karlhenning

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #814 on: September 16, 2009, 07:21:35 AM »
Different than . . . ?

Online Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #815 on: September 16, 2009, 07:48:34 AM »
Different than . . . ?

Oh, don't get me started!!!   8)

Everybody here knows "different from" is the correct phrase! 
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Joe Barron

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #816 on: September 16, 2009, 08:14:57 AM »
Cato, my neurons are slow this morning, or I should think I might find other examples of verb followed by adjective, as subtly distinct from verb modified by adverb.

Any enlightenment? Up to and including, you're just plain wrong, Karl  ;)

Verbs followed by adjectives are fine when the adjective refers to the subject and not necessarily to the verb. For example, "They swam nude" makes much more sense than "They swam nudely," which is just pretentious. (Jim Harrison used the latter construction in his novel Dalva, and I almost threw the book across the room.) In this case, it is "they" who are nude. They are not swimming in a nude manner, whatever that might be. Likewise, "to blow hot and cold" is the proper expression for equivocating, not "to blow hotly and coldly." You're not blowing in a hot and cold manner; you are, rather, blowing hot and cold (metaphorcal and unmentioned) air. And finally, there is "I feel good," a perfectly acceptable phrase. "I feel well" is OK, too, but you hear it more often as a question, as in "Don't you feel well?" I would say that feeling good probably refers to mood and feeling well to health, but that's not necessarily the case.  
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 08:30:56 AM by Joe Barron »

Franco

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #817 on: September 16, 2009, 08:39:34 AM »
However, in response to "How are you?" it is only appropriate for Superman to say "Oh, I'm doing good.  And you?"

karlhenning

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #818 on: September 16, 2009, 08:41:29 AM »
I tugged on his cape once.

Offline owlice

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #819 on: September 16, 2009, 08:41:50 AM »
Quote
Correct: Miles Davis's 1970s fusion records are not universally loved.

I think Davis's looks just fine in that sentence. Why people get all bent out of shape about the letter s, I do not know. It wants to be treated with the same respect given other letters! Let it have its apostrophe s!!