What is "quality music"?

[karlhenning]

Zappa, King Crimson... even stuff like Pink Floyd was considered superior.

I'm not any proper enthusiast for the Pink Floyd;  but if earlier we drew rough parallels between "Firth of Fifth" and "Erlkönig," and between "I Zimbra" and "Là ci darem";  I think the long arc of "Shine On, You Crazy Diamond" compares quite respectably with any number of concert overtures or tone-poems.

One fact which highlights the problematic nature of comparison, is that in the case of Zappa or Fripp, we aren't comparing composer to composer (Is Zappa 'as great a composer as' N.?)

Zappa and Fripp, working as they did in the environment they found themselves in, have been performer-composer-arranger-bandleaders (and, generally, managers, or auto-impresarios).  They both stand out from the larger 'herd' of pop musicians;  are both highly regarded performers;  and demonstrated a sustainedly musical 'ear' for arrangement/timbre, and a degree of compositional skill rare in pop musicians.

[Dr. Dread]

I'm not any proper enthusiast for the Pink Floyd;  but if earlier we drew rough parallels between "Firth of Fifth" and "Erlkönig," and between "I Zimbra" and "Là ci darem";  I think the long arc of "Shine On, You Crazy Diamond" compares quite respectably with any number of concert overtures or tone-poems.

One fact which highlights the problematic nature of comparison, is that in the case of Zappa or Fripp, we aren't comparing composer to composer (Is Zappa 'as great a composer as' N.?)

Zappa and Fripp, working as they did in the environment they found themselves in, have been performer-composer-arranger-bandleaders (and, generally, managers, or auto-impresarios).  They both stand out from the larger 'herd' of pop musicians;  are both highly regarded performers;  and demonstrated a sustainedly musical 'ear' for arrangement/timbre, and a degree of compositional skill rare in pop musicians.

And Ellington for jazz. He's even in a couple of my classical books as a composer. 

[Josquin des Prez]

He's even in a couple of my classical books as a composer. 

That's because he is a composer. If we were to rate Jazz musicians by genius, i'd place people like Coltrane on a much higher scale.

[Dr. Dread]

That's because he is a composer.

Yes, but a "jazz" composer. Gershwin would be considered one too, I guess.

[greg]

What about Lenny? Both?

[Frumaster]

I reject the notion that you can't qualify music.  Enough with the tolerance!  These people probably smeared feces on the wall as a kid and were told what great art they were creating.  Modern day pop music is a symptom of continuing cultural degeneration, perversion, and anti-intellectualism.  Enough!

[DavidRoss]

Anti-intellectualism you say?  Then I'm all for it!  Intellectuals are idiots, unable to see the forest not for the trees, but for their concepts about forests, trees, and the very nature of seeing itself.

[karlhenning]

And Ellington for jazz.

Oui.

[eyeresist]

Quality music is music written by someone who knows what they are doing technically, and whose aims are well beyond (or apart from) mere superficial excitement, sentimental pandering, trend following, and commercial ambition. All else is mere squabbling to defend our favourites (or condemn what doesn't match our taste).

[DavidRoss]

Quality music is music written by someone who knows what they are doing technically, and whose aims are well beyond (or apart from) mere superficial excitement, sentimental pandering, trend following, and commercial ambition. All else is mere squabbling to defend our favourites (or condemn what doesn't match our taste).

That leaves Wagner out. 

[aquablob]

Anti-intellectualism you say?  Then I'm all for it!  Intellectuals are idiots, unable to see the forest not for the trees, but for their concepts about forests, trees, and the very nature of seeing itself.

DR: (Though I am not a self-proclaimed intellectual by any means) I fear that, in your esteem, I fall into this camp of the near-sighted. Yet I do enjoy and respect your posts too much to take offense, which I hope will not bother you!

I'll hazard a few points:

1.  I probably find spiritual sustenance, solace, breadth & depth in some pop music.

2.  "The perfect pop song" is a little shadowy, and I think you set it against unfair implicit comparisons.  However, "the perfect pop song" probably holds its own against any number of classical Lieder.  Maybe "Life During Wartime" doesn't match the Berlioz Grande Messe des morts; but maybe "Firth of Fifth" is reasonable competition for "Erlkönig."

3.  In general, I agree that there is a greater degree of worthwhile literature produced out of the classical tradition, and a comparatively smaller percentage of worthwhile writing coming out of Planet Pop.  But I think that this is a result of a different genius:mediocrity ratio in the talent pool of the respective traditions, and not that this indicates any absolute barrier of artistic worth along a stylistic (or 'functional') fault-line.

I'm not any proper enthusiast for the Pink Floyd;  but if earlier we drew rough parallels between "Firth of Fifth" and "Erlkönig," and between "I Zimbra" and "Là ci darem";  I think the long arc of "Shine On, You Crazy Diamond" compares quite respectably with any number of concert overtures or tone-poems.

One fact which highlights the problematic nature of comparison, is that in the case of Zappa or Fripp, we aren't comparing composer to composer (Is Zappa 'as great a composer as' N.?)

Zappa and Fripp, working as they did in the environment they found themselves in, have been performer-composer-arranger-bandleaders (and, generally, managers, or auto-impresarios).  They both stand out from the larger 'herd' of pop musicians;  are both highly regarded performers;  and demonstrated a sustainedly musical 'ear' for arrangement/timbre, and a degree of compositional skill rare in pop musicians.

Characteristically, sensible and sensible.

[greg]

Anti-intellectualism you say?  Then I'm all for it!  Intellectuals are idiots, unable to see the forest not for the trees, but for their concepts about forests, trees, and the very nature of seeing itself.

Just never go too far with that attitude, like everyone else has- or else, I'll see you at a nightclub dancing to 2-beat music.

[eyeresist]

Just never go too far with that attitude, like everyone else has- or else, I'll see you at a nightclub dancing to 2-beat music.

I must be old, as I have no idea what that is. Nothing like 2-step, I assume?

(Old raver, junglist and general doofhead from way back.)

[Florestan]

No pop music industry existed in mid-19th Century Europe.  Writing songs for home and salon performance and selling sheet music was about as close as it got. 

Thanks for answering. Some of the similarities you noticed are amendable, though.

All were Romantics.  All epitomize the romantic ideal of the young artist whose life is cut tragically short.

They epitomize this romantic ideal for us today, but I'm not sure wether this ideal ever existed during Schubert's or Schumann's time. Yes, they died young or relatively young; but not on purpose and certainly not with the idea of fulfiling an ideal in mind. During Schubert's or Schumann's time there were tens or hundreds of thousands of people whose life was cut short from tuberculosis, or syphilis, or cholera, or schyzophrenia or whatever illness was incurable then because of lack of an adequate treatment. Schubert died young and so did thousands of his contemporaries, For us his early death may look Romantic but I think in his own time it had nothing Romantic, it was just an early death among a thousand others.

Now, it might be argued that their own lifestyles were conducive to death. This is certainly true in the case of Cobain and Morrison, who deliberately set themselves on the path of destruction, but I'm not sure it applies to Schubert or Schumann. The latter led a relatively bourgeois life and the alleged debaucheries of the former have never been proved beyond reasonable doubt.

All are worshiped by fans long after their deaths.

That's certainly true for all of them. There are differences in "worship"  and in "fans", though. Schubert had no fan during his life except a close circle of friends and relatives; he practically lived and worked completely unknown to the world at large and was a modest, shy and intravert person. A starkest contrast to the lives of Cobain and Morrison, exuberant extraverts who courted fans and seeked fame, cannot be found, methinks.

A couple of years ago I visited the Pere Lachaise cemetery in Paris. At Chopin's grave I met nobody; only a red rose was lying on his tomb. At Jim Morrrison's grave there was a large crowd , most of them bottle in hand, standing or sitting on other people's graves, which were filled with grafitti proclaiming Jim's glory and immortality. There's "worship" and "worship" and there are fans and fans.

I think that bottom line the only true similarity between them is that all four composed songs.

(I happened to like some The Doors and Nirvana songs when I was a teenager, but I can't remember how long it has been since I don't feel any need to listen to them again--- and this is true for a lot of pop or hard rock or heavy metal music I used to love back then. I envy those of my age who can still find joy and pleasure in listening to them.)

[karlhenning]

Nothing in the musical results of rock, pop or jazz comes close to the greater depth, innovation, subtlety & complexity found in the very best of the classical tradition which is vastly superior to my ears, and I don't mean complexity in its 'narrow' sense, which is the loaded one of a purely academic criteria, but rather as a very rich, deep and multi-faceted creation.

Well, at least here you've thrown in the phrase to my ears, which again has the grace of acknowledging that you're advising us of your opinion. "Nothing comes close to" is just a Pink Harp phrase, you know: splash an assertion and pretend it's fact.  Again with the proviso that we're not talking about "Yummy yummy yummy, I've got love in my tummy," one finds ample innovation and subtlety in rock/pop and jazz.  Even allowing for the fact that it remains to be discussed what one means by depth and complexity, it's disingenuous to suggest them for a sword which somehow cleaves classical from rock, when the same blade can be abused to 'separate' The Ring from a Bach Prelude & Fugue, e.g..  Depth and complexity aren't going to be cut-off criteria here.

[DavidRoss]

A horse is not a cow, and judged by the standards of cattle, a horse is a decidedly substandard example of cow-ness.

As for "Nothing in the musical results of rock, pop or jazz comes close to the greater depth, innovation, subtlety & complexity found in the very best of the classical tradition," such words could only be spoken by one who not only fails to see the virtues of horses because he insists on judging them as cows, but also by one who has never experienced any of the extraordinary evenings of jazz performance it has been my privilege to enjoy.

[Dr. Dread]

Some music is made for serious listening, some is made for shaking your booty, some is made for banging your head, some is made for bringing people together, some is made for expressing political views, some is made for spontaneous innovation, some is made for spacing out, some is made for sonic wallpaper, some is made for meditation...

Choose your poison.

[karlhenning]

I was talking about the best of the classical tradition and I think what I said is pretty irrefutable. Name me some best quality ephemera then karl, that in your estimation even approaches ?

I don't sign on to your implication that, say, the B Minor Mass is part of "the best of the classical tradition" to the exclusion of minor works.  I've said more than once (and if you're fond to disregard it, it is hardly the first time you shunt aside those portions of a discussion which you don't find of service to two-dimensional frameworks) that dismissal of pop/rock or jazz, because there is no "equivalent" to Don Giovanni (e.g.), is every bit as misguided as (for but one instance) dismissing Stockhausen because his frames of artistic reference are different to those of Beethoven.

It is necessary to approach each artist and his work on his/its own terms. (And no, that doesn't mean that "it's all super," to nod to our esteemed Cato.)

I love jazz, but even the very best of that doesn't really approach...

I'll repeat what you apparently did not trouble to read earlier:

"Nothing comes close to" is just a Pink Harp phrase, you know: splash an assertion and pretend it's fact.

No matter if you love jazz;  that doesn't mitigate the artistically misguided notion that it supposedly "falls short" by not reproducing the Beethoven Opus 125.

[karlhenning]

But this doesn't change the obvious & simple point that aesthetic value cogency is the measure of quality . . . .

Ah, yes, I was forgetting the obvious & simple points. (The air in here just got hotter.)

[DavidW]

James should make "aesthetic value cogency" a trademark phrase.