Topic: Why Grades in School Are A Bad Thing And Should Be Abolished

[Jay F]

I disagree:  Clinton was reasonably intelligent, just handicapped by messianic grandiosity and pathological dishonesty, and even today the's working very hard to deny responsibility for his failures and to take credit for others' successes.

I'm going out on a limb here to suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, Clinton isn't the former president Bulldog meant.

[Bulldog]

I'm going out on a limb here to suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, Clinton isn't the former president Bulldog meant.

Correct; I was referring to Bush. 

[Cato]

Correct; I was referring to Bush. 

Let me go out on a limb and say that I suspect David knew that!   

[Bulldog]

Let me go out on a limb and say that I suspect David knew that!   

Regardless, David doesn't seem to have warm feelings about Clinton; maybe he really likes Clinton's wife. 

[Cato]

Regardless, David doesn't seem to have warm feelings about Clinton; maybe he really likes Clinton's wife. 

Shiver me timbers!      What an insult!   

[Jay F]

Let me go out on a limb and say that I suspect David knew that!   

Let me go out on yet another limb and say I imagined that, too, but I have a hard time letting right-wing disingenuity (disingenuousness?) pass by without taking notice.

[Cato]

Let me go out on yet another limb and say I imagined that, too, but I have a hard time letting right-wing disingenuity (disingenuousness?) pass by without taking notice.

Except it was funny!     And yet not too funny, because it was true!

[nut-job]

The discussion brings to mind a scene in the late television show "Arrested Development" when young George Michael is sent to a new-age school.  He has the following exchange with his teacher:

George Michael:
Will this go toward my grade?

Teacher:
We don’t have grades here. A student either learns and gets an “L,” or they fluctuate in their learning.

George Michael:
What do we get for that?

Teacher:
An F.

[Superhorn]

    Nut-Job's comment about  my post on grading shows how arbitrary and subjective grading can be in schools.  He gave me a C-  because he did not agree with me. In my experience in schools, grading is often just like that. The teacher gives you a C- or D because he or she just happened not to like what you wrote ona paper or elsewhere.
  That low grade may not be the result of lack or effort or ability, but pure chance. This is why grades can be so bad. A high school or undergraduate student's chances of getting into college or graduate school should not be jeopordized because of grades that are a crap shoot.

    I repeat :  the OPPOSITE of grade inflation exists too, and I have experienced it in school myself.

[Cato]

    Nut-Job's comment about  my post on grading shows how arbitrary and subjective grading can be in schools.  He gave me a C-  because he did not agree with me. In my experience in schools, grading is often just like that. The teacher gives you a C- or D because he or she just happened not to like what you wrote on a paper or elsewhere.
  That low grade may not be the result of lack or effort or ability, but pure chance. This is why grades can be so bad. A high school or undergraduate student's chances of getting into college or graduate school should not be jeopordized because of grades that are a crap shoot.

    I repeat :  the OPPOSITE of grade inflation exists too, and I have experienced it in school myself.

Please read our objections carefully: there is nothing "arbitrary" about your C-.  You have that grade because your reasoning makes little sense as proven by our experience with students and by basic psychology. 

You receive low grades not "just because" a teacher does not "like what you wrote," but because what you wrote shows little sense objectively. 

Given grade inflation being rampant, it takes a good deal of effort to receive a low grade these days!   

[Bulldog]

    Nut-Job's comment about  my post on grading shows how arbitrary and subjective grading can be in schools.  He gave me a C-  because he did not agree with me. In my experience in schools, grading is often just like that. The teacher gives you a C- or D because he or she just happened not to like what you wrote ona paper or elsewhere.
  That low grade may not be the result of lack or effort or ability, but pure chance. This is why grades can be so bad. A high school or undergraduate student's chances of getting into college or graduate school should not be jeopordized because of grades that are a crap shoot.

    I repeat :  the OPPOSITE of grade inflation exists too, and I have experienced it in school myself.

Okay.  You make the point that some grades might be unfair.  But that's life.  Your performance appraisal from your boss might not be fair.  It might not be fair that your wife makes out like a bandit during divorce proceedings.  I have a friend who was shot in the head about 30 years ago; some of the bullet remains in his head, his actions became erratic and his wife had to divorce him.

You need to realize that "fairness" has very little to do with living a life.  It's how you respond to unfair practices that matters most. 

[nut-job]

    Nut-Job's comment about  my post on grading shows how arbitrary and subjective grading can be in schools.  He gave me a C-  because he did not agree with me. In my experience in schools, grading is often just like that. The teacher gives you a C- or D because he or she just happened not to like what you wrote ona paper or elsewhere.
  That low grade may not be the result of lack or effort or ability, but pure chance. This is why grades can be so bad. A high school or undergraduate student's chances of getting into college or graduate school should not be jeopordized because of grades that are a crap shoot.

    I repeat :  the OPPOSITE of grade inflation exists too, and I have experienced it in school myself.

My facetious grade assignment was not based on the fact that I don't agree with you, it was based on the fact that your post was wandering, not succinct, contradicted itself in numerous places, seemed confused and used questionable arguments.  At various places you question the validity of grades because they fail to measure a) effort, b) intelligence, c) academic success.   Make up your mind.  You state that some students may be more deserving of admission despite having poorer grades?  On what basis are these students more deserving?   Towards the end you claim that admission to school should be based on "tests of knowledge and ability" and "written essays and recommendations."  What basis is there for believing that these would be more fair (or any different) than grades?  Finally we have the statement that people should be admitted even with lousy grades if they show "exceptional academic ability."  What is academic ability other than good grades?

The most interesting part is the end, where you express your outrage that students get blamed for bad grades rather than the real villains, teachers who give bad grades.   

[Superhorn]

   There was nothing self-contradictory about my comments, whatever their faults may have been.
My point is that grades do NOT necessarily indicate how good a student is. I am convinced that this is  true.
  In most cases, students who work hard and have genuine academic ability will get good grades.
 I did not say that ALL students with low grades deserve higher ones. In some cases if a student does not work hard , neglects his or her work, and lacks academic ability and intellectual curiosity, the low grades  are deserved. But not in every case.
  Still, grades can be a crap shoot.  What some one said about it being difficult to get a low grade today because of grade inflation may be true  in some schools, but I never experienced this in my days of high school, undergraduate and graduate school many years ago in the 70s and 80s.
   In many cases, a professor would not give you an A or even a B no matter how hard you worked, or how much knowledge and academic ability you had, or how much you participated in class.
   I myself never had much luck with grades, even though many professors admitted that my knowledge and academic ability was so far above most other students where I studied you couldn't measure it.
   Some even said that I  had no business being in their classes because I knew far more about the subject they were teaching than they did !

[nut-job]

   There was nothing self-contradictory about my comments, whatever their faults may have been.
My point is that grades do NOT necessarily indicate how good a student is. I am convinced that this is  true.
  In most cases, students who work hard and have genuine academic ability will get good grades.
 I did not say that ALL students with low grades deserve higher ones. In some cases if a student does not work hard , neglects his or her work, and lacks academic ability and intellectual curiosity, the low grades  are deserved. But not in every case.
  Still, grades can be a crap shoot.  What some one said about it being difficult to get a low grade today because of grade inflation may be true  in some schools, but I never experienced this in my days of high school, undergraduate and graduate school many years ago in the 70s and 80s.
   In many cases, a professor would not give you an A or even a B no matter how hard you worked, or how much knowledge and academic ability you had, or how much you participated in class.
   I myself never had much luck with grades, even though many professors admitted that my knowledge and academic ability was so far above most other students where I studied you couldn't measure it.
   Some even said that I  had no business being in their classes because I knew far more about the subject they were teaching than they did !

Of course every grade doesn't necessarily indicate how good the student is in every case.  As in science, every measurement is subject to error, statistical fluctuation and systematic error.  The question of how to assign grades to be more accurate and more correlated with subsequent success is a legitimate one.   However to suggest grades should therefore be abolished  is ludicrous.  It is like saying that weather prediction should be abolished because the predictions are not always accurate.

The real puzzle is how you managed to get bad grades when you had superior academic ability, superior knowledge, and your professors acknowledged your superiority.  What does this superiority consist of?  If you were admitted to Harvard Medical school and became a brain surgeon based on your innate superiority would we have to take into account the unfairness of the fact that all of you patients die despite your innate superiority?