Gurn's Classical Corner

Started by Gurn Blanston, February 22, 2009, 07:05:20 AM

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knight66

I am aware that Gluck's reform operas had a great deal of influence for other opera composers; for instance, Berlioz, but was he influential on subsequent orchestral or instrumental writing? One of the 'reforms' he and some others introduced into opera, was the idea of the orchestration reflecting the moods and emotions within the opera.

In my mind it seems a short step from this kind of colouring of the full orchestral sound to what we think of as programme music. Did this development in opera lead to orchestral programme music, or am I pushing the idea too far?

Right now, although I can think of earlier pieces that evoke nature and set a mood; Icannot think of any attempt to tell a story, take a journey, using purely orchestral means?

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: knight on March 21, 2009, 08:03:00 AM
I am aware that Gluck's reform operas had a great deal of influence for other opera composers; for instance, Berlioz, but was he influential on subsequent orchestral or instrumental writing? One of the 'reforms' he and some others introduced into opera, was the idea of the orchestration reflecting the moods and emotions within the opera.

In my mind it seems a short step from this kind of colouring of the full orchestral sound to what we think of as programme music. Did this development in opera lead to orchestral programme music, or am I pushing the idea too far?

Right now, although I can think of earlier pieces that evoke nature and set a mood; Icannot think of any attempt to tell a story, take a journey, using purely orchestral means?

Mike

Interesting idea, Mike. I'm not sure how far forward you are looking into the future here, at least to Berlioz, I guess. But the concept of programme music, per se, was a reflection of composers reacting to German Romanticism in literature and criticism (and philosophy). But as far as technique for accomplishing this end, Gluck may well have been in the background. There was a long history of composers trying to represent physical phenomena and mental states in music, but not always successfully. Perhaps Gluck developed some means of making this more possible?

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knight66

I only mentioned Berlioz because he was not even marginally a contemporary of Gluck and was very explicit in his writings about Gluck's influence. I was really wondering more whether there were any younger contemporaries of Gluck who adopted any of his orchestral ideas away from the opera house.

The great Baroque writers certainly orchestrated carefully, but did not tie in the idea of a storyline into orchestral music. I know it blossomed in the Romantic period; but was no one experimenting with the ideas before then?

Mike

DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Gurn Blanston

No, I think the idea of program music was around for a long time. Here is some quick info that i stole from Wiki (to save having to pull books and type a lot.. ;D )

History

Examples of early program music can be found in the baroque period. Examples include Vivaldi's Four Seasons concertos, and Froberger's keyboard works. It began to become more common in the 1800s. Since then, it has grown in popularity and was used for the romantic era of the 1870s. From then on it has been used for much more than music; it has been used for dancing, singing and different types of music.

Renaissance period

Composers of the Renaissance wrote a fair amount of program music, especially for the harpsichord, including works such as Martin Peerson's The Fall of the Leafe and William Byrd's The Battell. For the latter work, the composer provided this written description of the sections: "Souldiers sommons, marche of footemen, marche of horsmen, trumpetts, Irishe marche, bagpipe and the drone, flute and the droome, marche to the fighte, the battels be joyned, retreat, galliarde for the victorie."

Classical era

Program music was perhaps less often composed in the Classical era. At that time, perhaps more than any other, music achieved drama from its own internal resources, notably in works written in sonata form. It is thought, however, that a number of Joseph Haydn's earlier symphonies may be program music; for example, the composer once said that one of his earlier symphonies represents "a dialogue between God and the Sinner". It is not known which of his symphonies Haydn was referring to. Another Classical-era composer, Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, wrote a series of symphonies based on Ovid's Metamorphoses (not to be confused with Twentieth-Century composer Benjamin Britten's Six Metamorphoses after Ovid).


For your contemporary question, I was going to mention Ditters anyway, although he cropped up in there too. There is likely little doubt that Ditters was influenced by Gluck. They were both contemporary in Vienna and undoubtedly knew each other very well. And Ditters, although not enjoyed as much today as he might deserve (just me and Poju, AFAIK), was very much enjoyed in 18th century Vienna, and was quite influential among his peers. :)

8)
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knight66

Interesting thanks; I did wonder whether The Four Seasons is really programme music. Perhaps so. The Byrd is purely a solo instrumental piece for harpsichord. I wonder whether the 'colour' evokes and supports the narrative? I suspect that the story relies more within the form of the music.

The programme idea looks thin on the ground when compared to what the Romantic composers did with it.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: knight on March 21, 2009, 08:49:07 AM
Interesting thanks; I did wonder whether The Four Seasons is really programme music. Perhaps so. The Byrd is purely a solo instrumental piece for harpsichord. I wonder whether the 'colour' evokes and supports the narrative? I suspect that the story relies more within the form of the music.

The programme idea looks thin on the ground when compared to what the Romantic composers did with it.

Mike

Oh, no doubt whatsoever that the 4 Seasons is programmatic. You should have been reading that brilliant thread that was on the old forum about it. ;D

I don't know Byrd, or any of the other Renaissance composers (except Purcell, and then just a bit) so i can't say.

But there is little doubt that there was a mass flowering of the concept in the later Classico-Romantic. The whole idea supports the Romantic concept that the composer should do all your thinking for you, and that music should be far less interactive. Two-edged sword there, eh?  :)

8)
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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

knight66

Yes, The Four Seasons, I have had a look, I had forgotten how detailed the programme there was.

I think also that there is the matter of so much pre Romantic music being written to be background music, or at least often treated as such. Clearly a lot of Baroque was meant to be attended to, but a lot was salon music, or occasional music. When did we get to the point when the music was the 'occasion'; as against often accompaniment to the occasion?

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: knight on March 21, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
Yes, The Four Seasons, I have had a look, I had forgotten how detailed the programme there was.

I think also that there is the matter of so much pre Romantic music being written to be background music, or at least often treated as such. Clearly a lot of Baroque was meant to be attended to, but a lot was salon music, or occasional music. When did we get to the point when the music was the 'occasion'; as against often accompaniment to the occasion?

Mike

Oh well, now that's just mean. :'(   But getting to your point (if it wasn't stabbing me in the heart), I suppose that "music as the occasion" was always the case with church music. How it spread out from there (opera isn't an exception, it was always the singing and not the music that drove opera until Mozart) is less clear. Certainly by the 1780's the symphony, for example, had transcended its beginnings as an overture and occasional piece to being a piéce de resistance. It is quite clear that by the time Haydn arrived in London that his symphonies were an occasion. I would posit that the rise of publicly accessible concerts (like the Concerts Spirituel in Paris and the J.C. Bach/Abel concerts in London) were a main force in creating what you describe. So that runs the date back to the 1760's....

8)

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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Concerning our recent discussion on improvisation, I pulled out an old essay on the topic written by clarinetist and author Dan Leeson. It is quite lengthy, so I will only quote one section of it here. It pertains directly to the subject at hand, although the works he is talking about are specifically the Clarinet Quintet and Clarinet Concerto of Mozart. The points he is making are valid across the board for music from the Classical Era (and even back into the Baroque in some aspects).

Why Spontaneous Improvisation?
Let me begin with a discussion of performance practice preceded by a single caveat: the operative word is "spontaneous." When performing music of this era, whatever purposes are served by improvising are defeated if the melodic alterations are not instinctive, impetuous, and different from performance to performance.
There is a staggering amount of material dealing with the subject of performance practice, a musicological domain that concerns itself with the problems of translating music notation into sound. The field of study exists because the way music is written down is insufficiently precise to describe exact execution requirements. This is complicated by assumptions that composers make when creating handwritten scores.

Composers, even contemporary ones, are explicit only with directions that are not absolutely obvious to an informed, contemporary performer. Yet, because these assumptions change with time, what requires no explicit direction in one era is not at all obvious to a later one. In the eighteenth century, for example, the first measure of every movement of any Mozart composition would automatically be played loudly if no dynamic was present. That was the assumption: no opening dynamic meant "forte" and every professional eighteenth century performer knew it. This standard of performing behavior can be seen in Mozart's autograph scores because he never wrote opening dynamics for any movement of any work unless it was to be executed other than loudly. Today, musicians no longer assume that "forte" is an inaugural default, so every opening dynamic must be explicitly specified.

In performing Mozart's music, we are fortunate that a large body of tradition has passed directly and uninterruptedly from his time to the present. This is increasingly less true the earlier music is traced back in time. For example, for certain epochs even the knowledge of the kinds of instruments used in music performance have been lost. Yet, despite the continuity of Mozartean tradition, there are many ways in which today's performances of Mozart's music differ from those of his era. An obvious example is the change in character of instrumental sound through changes in the technology of musical instruments, medium (box to mpingo to rose to cocabola woods, for example), and manufacturing process.
Definitions of symbols have also changed and the carrying out of Mozart's directions in an eighteenth-century manner is a challenge that contemporary players must deal with continuously. Common, everyday symbols must be interpreted, not in light of what they mean today, but what they meant around 1750-1800.

Other performance practices remain unclear despite continued investigation. This places performers in the position of not knowing precisely what to do in certain circumstances. An example of such a knowledge gap between ourselves and the eighteenth century has to do with the playing of minuets.

The minuet doesn't get much attention from clarinet players. That's not surprising. We don't play a lot of them. As such, they are generally thought of as the movement that separates the interesting ones. Today, as in the third movement of Mozart's clarinet quintet, K. 581, the convention is to play minuets in the following way: first time through, all repeats; on the da capo, no repeats. No one need tell experienced players this, for they play minuets this way automatically. This approach is twentieth-century performance practice for minuets.

But did Mozart and his contemporaries play minuets this way, or did a different practice exist until, as the function of such repeats receded into obscurity, the tradition changed? Here is a hypothetical scenario that explains the evolution.
As spontaneous improvisation fell out of fashion, instrumentalists lost facility in the skill. As a result, they no longer viewed the repeated sections as implicit invitations to improvise. Without improvisatory material to create variety, the multiple unadorned repetitions were considered boring, a problem whose solution lay in reducing the number of repeats. Thus, today's performance practice for minuets came about because of the extinction of another performance practice, namely that of spontaneous improvisation.

"Extinction" is probably too strong a word. This eighteenth-century practice is being revived by a few, leading-edge, avant garde instrumentalists (strange terms to use with respect to Mozart performance) and even a clarinet player, here and there. Colin Lawson, Charles Neidich, Larry Combs, and Tony Pay all improvise during their performances of K. 622. At a series of concerts at which I happened to be a participant for a performance of Mozart's Masonic Funeral Music, Mark Brandenburg of San Francisco showed an outstanding capacity for spontaneous inventiveness during his several performances of the same work.

But the fact is that the practice is far from being universally accepted, either in the performing community or by the listening public. Strong objections to any efforts to improvise are heard in many quarters. There is little agreement about where and when and how to improvise, or which performers are involved. Even less agreement can be found for what constitutes good or stylistically correct improvisation. Few music schools anywhere in the world train performers in the fundamentals of classical improvisation, which means that those instrumentalists who attempt it have almost no guidance on how to execute it effectively. There are no practical books that deal comprehensively with the subject, and only a few deal with it even at a theoretical level. In effect, little help exists in learning the craft.

Thus the potential inherent in spontaneous improvisation has not been demonstrated on a broad scale since it ceased being a workaday performance practice in the early 19th century. And, because the practice has ceased to be part of the contemporary performer's kit bag of tools, it is necessary to remind players why the practice ever existed at all; that is, what is the purpose of improvising during the execution of a work from the classic period? That I do now.
It is an article of faith that every musician wants his or her performance of any Mozart composition to be fresh and original. The reviewer who describes an interpretation with the pejorative "stale and unoriginal" signs a death warrant to a career. Unfortunately, except for the eternal freshness and originality of the music itself, there are few practical tools that help a performer achieve that goal. Whatever the important abstractions of personality, presence, sensitivity, energy, and temperament are to getting freshness in performance, they are God-given and difficult to summon on demand. Even those fortunate enough to possess such evanescent qualities may find it impossible to invoke them at will. So what can one do: give each clarinet solo that you play a periodic sabbatical so that it can get its batteries recharged? Should one take a nap on the afternoon of a performance, or enroll in a graduate seminar on "How to get fresh and original performances every time?", or visit an astrologer, or chant mantras, or eat vegetarian?
That the skill of improvising on an ongoing basis was a part of most eighteenth-century musician's repertoire of tools - like reading music or transposing - can neither be denied nor ignored. Such improvisations consisted of spontaneous changes to the pitches, rhythms, phrasings, and even harmonies of a melodic line at appropriate places in the composition.

Instantaneous invention of stylistically-characteristic, high-quality music is not an inborn skill, even though innate talent is obligatory. Such skill must be developed through study and practice. (That's an interesting oxymoron: practicing spontaneous improvisations.) On-the-spot creativity was one of several standards by which the listening public measured performers, and limitations were placed on the careers of eighteenth-century musicians who did not have that skill. Each performance consisted of a synergism: a one-of-a-kind mixture of the composer's architecture and the spontaneous decorations of one or more performers. The resulting creation of an absolutely unique performance was an important reason for improvising, then as now.

In effect, spontaneous improvisation is a tool that makes every performance unique. Its use makes it impossible for any two players to execute K. 622 the same way, as is, sadly, so often the case today. The tool may be likened to the thing that makes a hockey game interesting: once the puck is thrown down, one has no idea what is going to happen. And that is one of the principal reasons why eighteenth-century musicians improvised: it made every performance of a work measurably different from every other performance of that same work. As such, it was a tool used to create freshness and originality, the very thing that we all want to have in our performances.

The words "ornamentation" and "improvisation" are frequently used synonymously. But the late Frederick Neumann provided welcome help in distinguishing between them in his book "Ornamentation and Improvisation in Mozart," Princeton University Press, 1986.

"Ornamentation" deals with composer created decorations whose presence are indicated by specific symbols. These include, for example, grace notes, mordants, and trills. In studying ornamentation, one attempts to establish an unambiguous interpretation for each composer-created symbol in all possible contexts. The bottom line is that ornamentation is the province of the composer. The player simply executes what is written, hopefully interpreting the ornamentation symbols correctly.

"Improvisation" on the other hand is used to describe performer created changes to melodic lines. The listener's implicit assumption, though mostly inaccurate, is that improvisation is always spontaneous. Here, the bottom line is that improvisation is the province of the performer whose cue on where and when to improvise is taken from clues deposited by the composer and found within the text of the music.

Many who accept improvisation, even if only at a conceptual level, think of it as a thing reserved for a soloist in a concerto. A more assertive opinion holds that improvisation is available to anyone who happens to own the principle melodic line at an improvisable point of the composition. An even more aggressive view would point out that, in Don Giovanni, for example, the orchestral clarinetist has several significant opportunities for improvisation within arias, Il mio tesoro, for example, which has an important presentation of the solo line some time before the tenor's entry. The negative attitude with respect to spontaneous improvisation has several origins, one of which can be found in the musical attitudes of the Romantic era. There, spontaneous decorations for music written during that epoch were seriously discouraged, if not outright forbidden by the performance practices then in vogue. While, by convention, it is suitable for any epoch implicitly to establish its own performance practices, it may not be correct to apply the same protocol to music from earlier eras. The Romantic period had strong views on the role of the performer and they separated the world of creation - the business of the composer - from the world of execution - the business of the player. This attitude generated a self-fulfilling prophecy; i.e., as the practice was discouraged, performers lost facility in the skill. Thus, there existed a double inhibition against improvisation: lack of universal support for the practice and lack of craft in its execution. Today, the practice is sufficiently rejected that few performers realize that it was once a polished art form; and so few can do it effectively that spontaneous improvisation has ceased being an operative performance practice.
Another source of the negative attitude with respect to spontaneous improvisation is due, in part, to the excesses of the past. These past immoderations resulted not in the intensification of the expressive force and character of the music, but in a tawdry demonstration of performer virtuosity. Anyone who has heard a cornet solo play "The Carnival of Venice Variations," for example, hears the sad, ultimate fate of the once great art of spontaneous improvisation for in such action, the center of gravity is changed from the music's content to the player's virtuosity.

Today, many clarinetists assert that spontaneous improvisation serves no useful purpose; that it is, on the contrary, destructive to the music to which it is applied. This assertion bespeaks a lack of awareness of the role of the performer in music of the classic period and presumes that no one, no matter how gifted, can improve on the music of Mozart, much less with a craft that requires instantaneous creativity. That is a respectful but debatable position. And in any case it is irrelevant since the main purpose of improvisation is not the improvement of melodic lines. Its purpose, one to which Mozart personally subscribed both as a composer and a performer, is to change the role of the player and singer from that of a recreator of the music of others to a partner and participant in the creative process.

I would contrast such musical behavior with that of the dance where improvisatory and inventive movement is encouraged. Both the theater and the visual arts are filled with opportunities for enterprising self-expression through the medium of improvisation. Only music is taught as something that, as far as performance is concerned, is a finished art.
This is the historically inaccurate perspective of Mozart that we all carry; that is, it is our duty only to recreate it beautifully, not to consider each performance of it as an opportunity for further creation. Such a negative attitude is so pervasive that even Neumann speaks against it, a strange attitude in light of his persuasive evidence on the importance of the tool in Mozart's music. Neumann's view seems to accept only Mozart's spontaneous improvisations, presumably because he did it well. But, continues Neumann, modern-day performers should not improvise because they will probably do it badly.

With this attitude, it can be guaranteed that performers will never improvise well, or at all. How could it be otherwise? We are not trained in how, where, or when to improvise. Most players and singers are not sure of the historic rationale or musical purpose of improvisation. And Neumann, in this era's most important book on the subject, says that we should avoid the practice because we won't do it well. In the face of this, it is surprising that any player would even attempt it.
But improvising badly is no reason for not improvising. Instead, it is a reason to do more of it. How else are we going to learn to get it right? In addition to study and practice, quality improvisation requires enormous skill coupled with considerable imagination, great daring, and a special kind of courage. It is almost certain that anyone trying to learn the craft is going to be clumsy and inelegant early-on, putting too much in any single improvisation, doing it in the wrong places, or committing grave stylistic errors.

When I want to show an example of the effect of spontaneous improvisation, I am most often forced to demonstrate and explain it through the medium of jazz. Alternatively, I can point to Gospel music which thrives on improvisatory performances, or Jewish liturgical music, an art form that has a millennium of improvisatory tradition. Or to make the matter very personal for clarinetists, one need look no further than the performing genius of Giora Feidman. There one hears the excitement that elegant spontaneous improvisations accomplished by a master can bring to music.
Quality spontaneous improvisation does not come easily even to jazz players, for whom excellence in the skill is bread and butter. But at least they have the advantage of being able to study the craft with teachers who know something about it and its performance traditions. Many music schools offer credit courses in jazz improvisation, clear evidence that it is an acquirable skill.

Interestingly, symphonic performers who played jazz early in their careers, but who stopped it for one reason or another - for example, conductor/pianist Andre Previn or clarinetist Larry Combs - find that they must work at it before achieving the same degree of improvisatory excellence that was once theirs. Like most things, improvisatory skills will atrophy if not used.


8)



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Listening to:
Shostakovich Sym10 - Christoph Von Dohnanyi; Cleveland Orchestra - 3rd mvmt - Allegretto
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Sorin Eushayson

Fascinating article - thanks Gurn!  :)

SonicMan46

Haydn, Mozart, & the Viennese School, 1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first part of a trilogy w/ this one going for 700+ pages - this well research & written tome is much beyond my meager musical abilities & endurance; there is plenty of historic facts (and correction of previously published mis-information), but much of the book concentrates on detailed analysis of the compositions, esp. those earlier ones by Haydn - now this is a book that I borrowed from the library for a month - if I had the time (and the musical knowledge to understand the author's comments), then I'd sit down w/ the music playing while reading the detailed explanations - this would take months, at least for me; bottom line - if you want to read this book, first take a look at it in the library - you may change your mind -  ;) :D  This is an extremely long and erudite presentation likely most useful for graduate music classes - I'm not planning on exploring the other two (and longer) tomes of this vast trilogy.

But, this book (and I'm sure the others in the trio) are certainly pertinent to this thread, i.e. the nature of these musical periods, esp. of the 18th century and their transitions at the beginning and end of that century.  Currently, reading a chapter (honestly, parts of a chapter -  :-\) on Mozart, and his first 'continental' excursion - in the 1760s at the age of 7 y/o or so, he and family were in Paris and came to know several 'German' expatriots who were quite popular in the French captial - Johann Eckard (1735-1809) - dates almost matching those of Haydn & Johann Schobert (c.1735-1767); so, I was curious about recordings, and I do own a handful of discs:

Eckard - just one of solo keyboard works w/ Arthur Schoonderwoerd on the fortepiano; although in the liner notes (written by the performer), Eckard uniquely (and may have been a first?) indicated various terms for nuances of color/loudness, largely expecting these works to be played on a variety of instruments offering different playing options, i.e. harpsichord, clavichord, tangent piano, etc.

Schobert - works for harpsichord, violin, & cello w/ the 'Four Nations Ensemble' (Appel, Brown, & O'Sullivan) -  :D

 

 

Gabriel

One of the most delightful CD series available is The Romantic Piano Concerto in Hyperion. Some days ago I was thinking if it would be possible to develop such an idea concerning the classical era. It is obvious that Mozart's and Beethoven's contributions are elementary to understand this form during this period, but those magnificent works do not represent the whole of it, so I thought it would be interesting to mention classical piano concertos written by other composers.

I would like to mention the piano concertos composed by Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800), a French composer who died unfortunately too young. Jadin is a composer whose music sounds incredibly Mozartian: beautiful ideas, excellent developments and an unexplainable nostalgic feeling even in major mode works. I have listened to two of his three piano concertos, and both of them would surely deserve a better consideration within this repertoire. Alas, the name of Jadin is seldom known, even among music lovers, and his works are even less often played.

The second piano concerto, in D minor, was composed in 1796; it is a very tragical work, with a first movement whose main motive sounds as a cry of inner despair. The luminous, peaceful second subject provides a fascinating contrast. The piano writing is quite particular; in parts, it doesn't remember me of any other composer of this era (for instance, towards the end of the movement there is a very original sort of bird song). The textures are as pure as they can be, which, curiously, reinforces the sadness of the music.

The third piano concerto, in A major, composed in 1798, is quite a different work. A bold one. Jadin decided to write a concerto in two movements instead of the usual three, and the first one is admirable in its idea: after an orchestral exposition of about three minutes, the piano enters, not for reexposing the subjects as it should normally be, but for "singing" a rather short recitative whose delicacy is worthy of the greatest admiration. When the piano exposes the subjects after the recitative, the effect is impressive: they sound as if they had never been played, with a freshness and a beautiful simplicity rarely achieved even during classicism. The second movement, on the other hand, presents very different virtues: in a very disguised way, Jadin presents music of popular inspiration.

I know just one recording of these works, in the label Forlane, conducted by Gérard Streletski and played by Wen-Ying Tseng in a modern piano. Even if it is not an ideal recording, it is a very enjoyable one (I'm sure it would work better with a fortepiano, but to have at least one recording is good news).

Quote from: SonicMan on March 24, 2009, 01:57:34 PM
Haydn, Mozart, & the Viennese School, 1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first part of a trilogy w/ this one going for 700+ pages - this well research & written tome is much beyond my meager musical abilities & endurance; there is plenty of historic facts (and correction of previously published mis-information), but much of the book concentrates on detailed analysis of the compositions, esp. those earlier ones by Haydn - now this is a book that I borrowed from the library for a month - if I had the time (and the musical knowledge to understand the author's comments), then I'd sit down w/ the music playing while reading the detailed explanations - this would take months, at least for me; bottom line - if you want to read this book, first take a look at it in the library - you may change your mind -  ;) :D  This is an extremely long and erudite presentation likely most useful for graduate music classes - I'm not planning on exploring the other two (and longer) tomes of this vast trilogy.

It sounds very tempting. Perhaps next month! ;D

sTisTi

There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet.



As an admirer of Krommer's music, I'm naturally tempted by the disc, but - how shall I put it - I'm not sure if the medium of the string quartet is the most suitable for the expression of his talents  ;)

Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...

Gabriel

#313
After Jadin, some other recommendations for The Classical piano concerto:

1. Franciszek Lessel (1780-1838), piano concerto in C major, op. 14. As I had already said in a previous post, it is a very transparent work, plenty of beautiful melodic lines. A bit edulcorated, but nonetheless a very enjoyable composition.

2. Václav Jan Křtitel Tomášek (1774-1850), piano concertos in C major, op. 18, and E flat major, op. 20. These are excellent examples of the piano concerto around 1800, quite close to Beethoven's opp. 15, 19 and 37. They sound "stronger" than Mozart's works in this genre. Highly melodic, having a beautifully written piano score and remarkable piano-orchestra dialogues, they are certainly not intended to open new ways in music, but they reflect marvelously their own time. Of particular interest, the first movement of op. 18 (just at first listening to the first subject it is possible to see that "something" is happening: in fact, the "square" distribution of phrases begins to be eclipsed) and the third of op. 20 (a so playful finale that it seems that the spirit of a scherzo has been infused to it).

Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 08:17:11 AM
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet.
Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...

I saw it and I have already put it on my shopping cart. ;D Don't forget that Krommer was considered in his time as an authority in chamber music, and his string quartets were particularly appreciated. I'm really eager to this recording because, as far as I know, the only available recording of Krommer string quartets is one in Tudor with the op. 18. They are very well written and very enjoyable, but they are early works written before his best efforts. This new CD that you mention includes one quartet from op. 19, but also one from op. 74 and one from op. 103: op. 74 n. 3 is in D minor and op. 103 n. 3 is in A minor, so minor-mode fans will be pleased. ;)

You can listen to some samples in www.jpc.de. I will not comment too much on these short fragments, but judging from the main subjects I can tell you that I will buy the CD. As Beethoven, Krommer has some "stages" of development, clearly listeneable from the excerpts. I knew op. 19/2 in a further reelaboration by Krommer (piano trio op. 32, without the minuet that is present in the quartet). Op. 74/3 seems to bring the typical melodic virtues of Krommer's middle works within a dramatic context; for instance, the cello part of the menuet seems to be particularly original. Op. 103/3 is from his last works, where Krommer developed a style almost incomparable with anyone else; while not assimilating the "emotional" romantic concept, he manages to produce subjects and textures that can't be described but plainly as "strange". Notice the dialogues in the beginning of the first movement and the chromatic features of the andante: something is really happening there.

Once I listen to the CD I will give my real opinion, but those samples are a very effective appetizer for a lover of Krommer's music.

SonicMan46

Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 08:17:11 AM
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet........

Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...

Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)

sTisTi

Quote from: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 08:54:30 AM
I saw it and I have already put it on my shopping cart. ;D Don't forget that Krommer was considered in his time as an authority in chamber music, and his string quartets were particularly appreciated. I'm really eager to this recording because, as far as I know, the only available recording of Krommer string quartets is one in Tudor with the op. 18. They are very well written and very enjoyable, but they are early works written before his best efforts. This new CD that you mention includes one quartet from op. 19, but also one from op. 74 and one from op. 103: op. 74 n. 3 is in D minor and op. 103 n. 3 is in A minor, so minor-mode fans will be pleased. ;)

You can listen to some samples in www.jpc.de. I will not comment too much on these short fragments, but judging grom the main subjects I can tell you that I will buy the CD.
Thanks for your hint with JPC, I just listened to the samples: Great stuff, I instantly liked it, especially op. 74 & 103! The pre-order is already done!

sTisTi

Quote from: SonicMan on March 26, 2009, 09:35:50 AM
Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)
I haven't heard of them either, but I found their website (http://www.marcolini-quartett.de , only in German) and they seem to be members from the Concerto Köln. They play on period instruments and seem already to have gathered good reviews for their work. Funnily, due to their liking of chocolates, they are named after Pierre Marcolini, a Belgian master "chocolatier". ;D

Gabriel

Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 10:23:58 AM
I haven't heard of them either, but I found their website (http://www.marcolini-quartett.de , only in German) and they seem to be members from the Concerto Köln. They play on period instruments and seem already to have gathered good reviews for their work. Funnily, due to their liking of chocolates, they are named after Pierre Marcolini, a Belgian master "chocolatier". ;D

Stisti, thanks for the link, which I visited at once. I hope they will continue recording these delikatessen!

Quote from: SonicMan on March 26, 2009, 09:35:50 AM
Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)

Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 10:02:02 AM
Thanks for your hint with JPC, I just listened to the samples: Great stuff, I instantly liked it, especially op. 74 & 103! The pre-order is already done!

I guess I will have to buy the CD very quickly... otherwise I won't have any chance of getting it! ;D

Dave, I'm sure there is great chamber music by Krommer waiting to be recorded, specially in the string quartet area. I can't suggest enough the marvelous string trio op. 96. Krommer was a lot more than his stupendous works for wind instruments. :)

SonicMan46

Quote from: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 11:00:50 AM

Dave, I'm sure there is great chamber music by Krommer waiting to be recorded, specially in the string quartet area. I can't suggest enough the marvelous string trio op. 96. Krommer was a lot more than his stupendous works for wind instruments. :)

Hello Gabriel - thought that I had some Krommer string music, but no!  :-\  Now, I've added the suggested SQs disc to my 'wish list', and just found the item below on the usual USA 'first check' websites - about all that is available; price is OK, and includes a piano quartet (fine w/ me) - just curious if you're familiar w/ this disc or possibly others that I can order 'off shore'?  Thanks - Dave  :D


Gabriel

Dave: I'm familiar with the CD. :) As far as I know, it is the only recording of the piano quartet and one of the two available recordings of the string trio, so I guess you shouldn't think too much about it. For the trio op. 96, in my opinion, the recording by the Czech String Trio has better sound, is more precise and smoother (I would simplify by saying it is better in general), but it's quite difficult to find (it's a small label: look for the CD in http://www.musicvars.cz/en/index.html). Kontraste Köln is HIP - and very clearly - so people not liking this kind of performances would have some problems. As you are a whole-hearted classicist, you shouldn't suffer with that, I guess... ;)