Topic: Wagner's Valhalla

[Sergeant Rock]

Interesting discussion but...I understood what Chaszz meant, and wanted, and I answered him.

Sarge

[Haffner]

Wubba-wubba? 

Well, Karl isn't being very specific. There is the wubba-wubba as the overall ensemble. But there is also the male and female duetti (the "dubba trubba"), the piccolo section ("baby bubba"), and of course the cross-dressing baritone called "Hell-of-a-Hubba-Bubba".

[karlhenning]

The wubba-wubba about which we can be specific, is not the true wubba-wubba :-)

[uffeviking]

Flash of ingenuity while getting my hair cut: We can't the Winterstürme and Abendstern be classified as a Lied?. After all, we do have the Preislied in Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg and, as far as I know, Wagner gave it this title. Or was this Cosima's interfering brainstorm? 

[Haffner]

The wubba-wubba about which we can be specific, is not the true wubba-wubba :-)

AAAhhhh...I see now, great Grasshoppa! (I'll try not to say nuthin' to the Big Bloppa 'bout this, chile).

[karlhenning]

Thought I was on the Favorite Funk thread for a moment there . . . .

[Yasser]

Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either. Aria and opera are Italian terms, and Wagner hated Italian opera.

Where did you get this from? Wagner was influenced by Bellini and declared Rossini to be a genius.

Yasser

[PerfectWagnerite]

Where did you get this from? Wagner was influenced by Bellini and declared Rossini to be a genius.

Yasser

Really? He also thought Verdi was a hack and not much of a composer.

[Chaszz]

As Sarge guessed, I meant aria in the wider, inexact sense of a soloist, or soloists, accompanied by orchestra. My favorite is the quintet from Meistersinger, followed closely by the Spring Song from Walkure.

As for Lohengrin and Tannhauser, I personally love them both. For me its the music that counts most. Both of these have some very glorious music. As a matter of fact, the musical inspiration in Lohengrin rarely if ever flags from beginning to end.

 

[PerfectWagnerite]

As Sarge guessed, I meant aria in the wider, inexact sense of a soloist, or soloists, accompanied by orchestra. My favorite is the quintet from Meistersinger, followed closely by the Spring Song from Walkure.

As for Lohengrin and Tannhauser, I personally love them both. For me its the music that counts most. Both of these have some very glorious music. As a matter of fact, the musical inspiration in Lohengrin rarely if ever flags from beginning to end.

 

If Wagner never wrote another note after Lohengrin, he would be considered a very good composer already, probably on the same plateau as Bellini, Rossini, and Donizetti. It is what he did AFTERWARDS that makes him almost super-human. Tannhauser, Dutchman, and Lohengrin all contained some wonderful music, but none displayed the sort of out-of-nowhere genius that came afterwards. It is almost impossible to comprehend how far Wagner progressed from Lohengrin to Rheingold. Lohengrin is almost Italian-like with its sweeping arches of melody. With Rheingold everything is more direct, more angular, and more organic. To me the jump from Lohengrin to the Ring Cycle is tantamount to Beethoven going from the second to third symphonies, or Sibelius going from the 2nd to 3rd symphonies, or Shostakovich going from his third to fourth symphonies. You never see it coming.

[Yasser]

Really? He also thought Verdi was a hack and not much of a composer.

So how does that translate into "Wagner hated Italian Opera"?

Yasser

[uffeviking]

If ACD were still with us he could clarify the question, often asked, if Winterstürme is a true aria.

He might not be here as a registered member of GMG but there are other channels of communication with old friends, helpful friends, to be specific. I won't bore you with who stated this and who replied thusly, but pass on the information I have received in ref. to the latest discussion.

There is no recording of Wagner's orchestral arrangement of Beethoven's Ninth for the simple reason, he never wrote one.

Next: Winterstürme is indeed an aria, a simple-form aria and Wagner has warned the singers to not sing it as an aria because it might destroy the dramatic import. Why he wrote an aria and did not want it to be sung as aria, this question has no known answer.

Next: Stage works Wagner wrote before Das Rheingold are all operas, loaded with arias etc.

And yes, Wagner held all Italian operas in deepest contempt, but he rather liked Bellini's Norma and Rossini's Il Barbière. Wagner was not influenced by Bellini and never declared Rossini to be a genius.


To get correct answers to questions re. Richard Wagner, all one has to do is consult an expert. Who, BTW. has proved me wrong more than once and I always appreciated learning about one of my favorite composers from a knowledgeable source of everything Wagnerian. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Next: Winterstürme is indeed an aria, a simple-form aria and Wagner has warned the singers to not sing it as an aria because it might destroy the dramatic import. Why he wrote an aria and did not want it to be sung as aria, this question has no known answer.

Next: Stage works Wagner wrote before Das Rheingold are all operas, loaded with arias etc.

Which fully justifies my choice of music and answer to Chaszz. Apparently I'm as much of a Wagner expert as the sainted ACD...which doesn't surprise me: I've been studying the composer and his music since I was 13...45 years now. I should start a blog 

Sarge

[Yasser]

And yes, Wagner held all Italian operas in deepest contempt, but he rather liked Bellini's Norma and Rossini's Il Barbière. Wagner was not influenced by Bellini and never declared Rossini to be a genius.


To get correct answers to questions re. Richard Wagner, all one has to do is consult an expert. Who, BTW. has proved me wrong more than once and I always appreciated learning about one of my favorite composers from a knowledgeable source of everything Wagnerian. 

Excuse me, but who made ACD THE expert in Wagner? His views are just one man's views, not an authority. I have never claimed any expertise in Wagner, all I have done so far is writing what I know about this composer. FYI, he did declare Rossini to be a genius, unlike what ACD or anyone else claims:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666%2819070401%2948%3A770%3C231%3ACM%28%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Read the paragraph that starts with "As they came away Wagner acknowledged..."

I thought this was an open-minded forum where we can share our knowledge and passion for opera, not some sort of new feeds from so-called experts.

Yasser

[uffeviking]

Indeed it is an open-minded forum and I am sharing my information received from a person I respect and whose in depth study of Wagner I am familiar with.   

[Chaszz]

It seems to me that there is no foremost expert on Wagner anywhere. The disagreements this composer is likely to arouse among music lovers are legion and admit of no complete expertise. Whether or not he satirized Jews in his operas will be a point of contention down the ages to come. In general, the primary sources, such as Mein Leben and Cosima's Diaries, are open to possibilities of bending the truth, and reminiscences of other people are open to the possibilities of faulty remembrances. So I don't admit of any complete expert, and the refutation of the above point on Rossini is a good example of a so-called expert who makes a blanket statement (Wagner never said Rossini was a genius) and happens to be mistaken.

It is no surprise that the referenced ACD causes disputes even in his absence. I wonder why he is no longer here - did he wear out his welcome by his crude behavior as he has on so many music forums? His habit of calling those with whom he disagrees 'idiots' does little positive to reflect on his presumptive expertise.

[uffeviking]

I wonder why he is no longer here

No need to wonder. It was the gentleman's personal decision to delete his membership at GMG. 

[Anne]

In the liner notes of one of her recordings, Jane Eaglen specifically singled out Bellini as a composer admired by Wagner who also influenced him (Wagner)  - specifically regarding his (Bellini's) long arches of melodies.

[uffeviking]

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666%2819070401%2948%3A770%3C231%3ACM%28%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Read the paragraph that starts with "As they came away Wagner acknowledged..."

IYasser

Oh let's continue, please, I enjoy this thread because I received a reply to the above link from ACD:

"The person who linked that fragment of a magazine article should learn that
1) a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and 2) never bet the farm on
quotes taken out of context.

The sentence in that magazine article that reads, "And he [Wagner] added a
few words of Rossini's genius as a composer...," are not Wagner's words, but
the words of Herbert Thompson, the author of the magazine article.
Thompson's source is a small volume entitled, _Richard Wagner's Visit to
Rossini & An Evening at Rossini's in Beau-Sejour_, written and published in
1906, some 46 years after the fact, by one, Edmond Michotte.  Michotte quotes
Wagner as saying as they left Rossini's apartment:

"What mightn't he (Rossini) have produced if he had been given a strong,
complete musical education?  Especially if, less Italian and less skeptical,
he had felt inside him the religion of his art.  There can be no doubt that
he would have taken off on a flight that would have raised him to the highest
peaks.  In a word, he is a genius who was led astray by not having been well
prepared, and not having found the milieu for which his high creative
abilities had designed him."

Notice the conditional tense throughout.  IOW, a carefully worded,
left-handed compliment, complete with 19th-century excess in the wording."

Answers my doubts about the linked publication. - And I thank ACD for helping me out here. Still wish he were here though! 

[Yasser]

Oh let's continue, please, I enjoy this thread because I received a reply to the above link from ACD:

"The person who linked that fragment [...]

Sorry Uffe, but I have no desire to respond to such posts when I am being refrerred to as "The person who". Only if ACD wants to respond to me directly and do it respectfully by using my name.

I enjoy your posts and always look forward to your recommendations when it comes to operas on DVD and I hope I can still read your personal opinions here more and more.

Anne,

Thank you for your post regarding Bellini.

Yasser