Topic: Wagner's Valhalla

[knight66]

The last time I saw Dutchman, Senta did not commit suicide. So, that demolished one of the main pillars that Wagner obsessed over, redemption through sacrifice, there was no sacrifice.

In the one prior to that, the sailors had themselves a jolly bukkake session!

Mike

[ritter]

Just finished reading this book, to which SurprisedByBeauty alerted us:



It is a very entertaining book, shedding light on Wieland Wagner's approach to the works of his grandfather and of others (Carmen, Aïda, Wozzeck..). Some wonderful insights are gained on some of the works, although sometimes Antoine Goléa tries to impose his own (often far-fetched) interprations of some pieces. Before anyone asks, no, none of the shadier aspects of Wieland's biography are even hinted at (as nobody would expect, given the nature of the book and the time the interviews took place--June 1966, just 3 months before Wieland's sadly premature death).

And yes, my copy has a stamp saying "Bibliothek Winifred Wagner" 

P.S.: Lohengrin at the Deutsche Oper last Sunday was just "OK", not really memorable. Peter Seiffert was uneven at the beginning, but displayed all his (long) experience in the rôle (he's 62) in a rather extraordinary Graalserzählung at the end. He seemed not to know the production too well, and had trouble moving around the stage. Annette Dasch was a touching Elsa, with some minor intonation issues in the high register at times (and an unexpected moment of hilarity happened when she fell off the bed in the Act 3 duet with Lohengrin). Wolfgang Koch an imposing if rather rough (as usual with this singer) Telramund, and Elisabete Matos was effective as Ortrud (although she was the only one who received some scattered boos in the final curtain calls). Günther Groissböck filled in at the last minute as Henry the Fowler, and was superb (as was Derek Welton--a member of the house ensemble--as the Herald).

Axel Kober didn't manage IMHO to capture the ethereal, iridiscent sound the prelude requires, but then went on to conduct a very sensitive performance, with excellent balance between pit and stage, and good dramatic thrust (while not ingoring the details of Wagner's scoring). The effect created by placing the trumpets of the introduction to scene 3 of the last act all around the theatre was very nice.

Kasper Holten's production really didn't have any very distinctive features, appeared strangely incoherent (while remaing for the most faithful to the libretto, except for a predictable twist at the end--Gottfired is returned to Brabant as a corpse), and the sets appeared simply cheap.

[relm1]

Some have said "you cannot underestimate the influence of Wagner on classical music."  What is his influence?  Obviously I know Bruckner and Mahler were very impacted.  But at a more nuanced level what resulted from the influence of Wagner?

[Mahlerian]

Some have said "you cannot underestimate the influence of Wagner on classical music."  What is his influence?  Obviously I know Bruckner and Mahler were very impacted.  But at a more nuanced level what resulted from the influence of Wagner?

A freer application of dissonances, a reduced reliance on the anchor of key as a structuring element, and the use of motifs as unities in themselves which can operate independently of the accompanying harmony and even contradict its implications.  His orchestra was also larger and frequently employed unusual timbres and combinations thereof.

In the realm of opera more specifically, Wagner continued the trend away from number opera with its distinction between recitative and aria.  The accompanying music was pushed further towards a reflection of the drama onstage.

In all of these things he had predecessors, especially Berlioz and Liszt, but Wagner was the one who became the figurehead for "progressive" music in the mid-19th century.

[relm1]

A freer application of dissonances, a reduced reliance on the anchor of key as a structuring element, and the use of motifs as unities in themselves which can operate independently of the accompanying harmony and even contradict its implications.  His orchestra was also larger and frequently employed unusual timbres and combinations thereof.

In the realm of opera more specifically, Wagner continued the trend away from number opera with its distinction between recitative and aria.  The accompanying music was pushed further towards a reflection of the drama onstage.

In all of these things he had predecessors, especially Berlioz and Liszt, but Wagner was the one who became the figurehead for "progressive" music in the mid-19th century.

Much thanks Mahlerian. 

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Much thanks Mahlerian.

The simplified version, more or less repeating what Mahlerian said in so many words, is: After the Tristan-chord, tonality was never the same again; it was stretched to the max... there was a little bit to be had by condensing & tightening or by making the canvas still larger, but it's argued that it led almost necessarily to Schoenberg trying to smash the cork out of the bottle of tonality.

And opera was never the same again; it was now, more often than not, composed-through (starting with Verdi, who was one of the first to take the cue (i.e. Falstaff)). And the total connection of drama and music; the even greater insistence on the word as equal part in opera and the music employed as a means to express it and yet have the music act as an independent vehicle of expression... the expression of psychology through music, for example... that was pretty much all Wagner and there couldn't have been a Pelleas & Melisande or anything by Strauss or Britten or Janacek had it not been for Wagner to complete revolutionize the way opera worked.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Does anyone have a clue about why Ludwig Suthaus in Furtwangler's Siegfried recording from 1953 repeatedly pronounces Mime's name as "Mimme"?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Does anyone have a clue about why Ludwig Suthaus in Furtwangler's Siegfried recording from 1953 repeatedly pronounces Mime's name as "Mimme"?

He probably thought he was singing La Boheme.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Does anyone know whether according to this:



The price is for Tristan, Parsifal and Ring COMBINED? In which case it sounds absurdly cheap.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Does anyone know whether according to this:



The price is for Tristan, Parsifal and Ring COMBINED? In which case it sounds absurdly cheap.

No, I'm afraid that's not what it means. This means that for each individual opera, those are the prices... whereas for the new production (Meistersinger), the prices are different.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

No, I'm afraid that's not what it means. This means that for each individual opera, those are the prices... whereas for the new production (Meistersinger), the prices are different.

But mind you that some of the cheapest seats in the house (in fact most of them!) are still anywhere between good and more-than-tolerable seats.

[PerfectWagnerite]

No, I'm afraid that's not what it means. This means that for each individual opera, those are the prices... whereas for the new production (Meistersinger), the prices are different.

For Ring is that the price PER opera? i remember paying $250 for EACH opera at the MET...

[SurprisedByBeauty]

For Ring is that the price PER opera? i remember paying $250 for EACH opera at the MET...

Yes. True, It's not made super-explicit but it must be assumed.

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

Wagner is both underrated and overrated.  He's been hyped for the wrong things and passed over for some of the important things he achieved.  He has a big reputation but reputation is for the wrong things.

Jeffrey put it well; I'd add that many are repulsed by the antics of rabid Wagnerians and all the other stuff surrounding Wagner and his "tradition" (Winifred, Hitler, whatnot) but all this has very little to do with the music. People who are put off by Wagnerianism tend to underrate the composer, I guess.

But I think that by many musicians, dramatists, composers and a few other artists (like Thomas Mann who was totally nuts about Wagner) Wagner is often highly rated and properly revered for really stunning achievements. Although even among such elite connoisseurs the hype might have been a little over the top ca. 1875-1915.

(I felt I shouldn’t prolong the digression in yonder thread, so I take this parenthesis here.)

There really are rabid Wagnerrhoids in our day, but none (I don’t think) among our fine GMG band. I’m not going to put this as any fault on Wagner’s part, but as two minds not quite meeting.  (And I am open to the possibility that I might be writing to very different purpose today, if when I was at Buffalo, for instance, I had taken Jeremy Noble’s class on Tristan.)  Although I have not repeated the experience, I remember entirely enjoying my first listen to the whole of Parsifal – but, I divided it over three days, I think.

It is not exactly that Wagner runs too long – it may be just right – nor is it exactly that I am impatient (I am perfectly happy listening to a Bruckner symphony all through). It is:

• That at present (a present which has seemed to last for a few decades) I do not find myself wanting to spend that much time at a stretch listening to Wagner
• That in any event, with the exception of two performances of Les Troyens (one at the Met, one a concert performance here in Boston), I don’t believe I have sat still for three hours steady, to listen to any music, in a very long while

At some point that is apt to change, and it is in earnest that I report that I do look forward to a second go at Parsifal, and contemplate with genuine interest attending to the Ring properly, at last.

But at the moment, I am about other things musically.

[kishnevi]

The sheer time involved with Wagner operas can be a hindrance.   To listen to almost any of the later operas,  requires a several hour stretch if one doesn't listen to it one act at a time.  Whereas, for instance,  Otello, Falstaff,  La Boheme, Tosca and many others need only a two hour span.

That said, long playing time is not limited to Wagner.  Verdi passed the three hour limit in more than one of his operas (albeit often because of add-ons:  Vespri Siciliani contains a half hour long ballet, for instance), and Mozart  wrote several operas that pass, or at least come close to, the three hour limit (Cosi fan tutte, for instance) and Lucio Silla is about three and a half hours long, only slightly less than Walkure.

[Jo498]

I also rarely listen to Wagner these days, partly because of the length. But when I did, I often did it in ca. one hour/one act/on disc per evening.
Because I am/was poor and lazy (Wagner usually requires some travelling, unless one lives close to a large opera house, even in Germany where Mozart operas are done in smallish town theatres) I only saw two Wagner operas on stage. Siegfried and Parsifal. In both cases I was positively surprised because I had expected it to be something of a chore to sit through these long pieces but it really was not. O.k., maybe a little

[ritter]

Cross-posted from the "New Releases" thread:

Orfeo will be releasing the 1959 Bayreuth Der fliegende Holländer in August. The cast includes Josef Greindl, Leonie Rysanek, George London, Fritz Uhl and Res Fischer, under Wolfgang Sawallisch. I suppose it is the same performance that appeared on the bootleg Golden Melodram label years ago, but would presume the sound will be vastly better this time around.

I believe this was the first year of Wieland Wagner's production that used the 3-act version with pauses between the acts, and that was later recorded (in 1961) by Phlips with Franz Crass and Anja Silja (a recording that is included in the big Decca Bayreuth box). London and Rysanek, of course, recorded their roles in the studio under Antál Doráti for Decca.

No cover yet, I'm afraid.

[Brewski]

Last night, a most interesting talk by Mark Berry, a Wagner scholar, on the Ring Cycle directed by Frank Castorf, which appeared for the 4th time (?) at Bayreuth this year. If there is any justice, this production by Serbian designer Aleksandar Denić will make it to DVD. The excerpts were pretty extraordinary, both vocally and scenically.

Check out the photos on the designer's website. The sample below is from Das Rheingold.

http://aleksandardenic.com/theatre.html

--Bruce

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

I had a burger there once.

[Sergeant Rock]

Check out the photos on the designer's website. The sample below is from Das Rheingold.

The gods are residing in a cheap motel?    Okay, I suppose that makes sense. They can't really afford the price of Valhalla so better temporary accommodations are out of the question

Seriously, it is an impressive set. Unfortunately, I was only able to see about half the photos. There's a bug somewhere; I kept being recycled to an earlier image rather than completing the slideshow.

Sarge