Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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PSmith08

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2007, 02:14:56 PM
Bear with me for a second. The link you gave points to a page with a two paragraph article on Wagner and an embedded link to the Mac Donald article. Am I missing something?

Yeah, toward the bottom there's a link to ACD's own thoughts about how to modernize the Ring.

marvinbrown

#201

  No one has posted on this thread for at least 120 days  :o and I have no intention of starting a new Wagner appreciation thread so I am bumping this thread! So why now, well only to say that we have approached the end of the year, that's right folks 2007 is sure to end soon and 2008 is well on its way. Throughout the year of 2007 I have discovered so many new composers: Bruckner, Dvorak, Debussy to name a few and have expanded my collection of Bach, Mozart, Verdi, R. Strauss and BEETHOVEN. I am happy to report that WAGNER  0:) remains unsurpassed as my favorite composer. His music dramas thrill me in ways no other composer could and continues to reach an emotional level unlike anything else I have heard throughout this past year. 

The 4 operas of the Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger and Parsifal form the backbone (the spine) of my music collection.  They also represent the standard to which I hold and judge all other works of art.  Sometimes I get the feeling that Wagner wrote with me (marvinbrown) in mind.  I love the escapist worlds he created. To be transported into the world of the Ring Cycle and to live out the adventure from Das Rheingold to Gotterdammerung pleases me to no end. The other day as I was listening to Siegfried from the Solti Ring when I got to the sword (Notung) forging scene the power and sublime beauty of that scene took my breath away.   I thought, damn you Wagner, damn you for having talent to write a masterpiece like that- why can't I compose music like that??  I guess some people were destined for greatness and others (moi) to only dream of greatness......and to enjoy it of course  ;)!

  So how about all you opera fans out there?  what Wagnerian operas have you been exploring lately? Next year I plan on getting the Bohm Tristan und Isolde and hopefully picking up another ring cycle on DVD, a different production from the Levine MET one I already have. What Wagnerian operas are you planning on purchasing next year?

  marvin

Anne

I had Kubelik's Meistersinger from a class I had attended earlier.  When I heard there was a Lohengrin also, I bought it.  Unfortunately I haven't listened to it yet.

Smetana's The Kiss has many references to Wagner that are very nice.  His style of accompaniment is quite symphonic. 

uffeviking

May I assume you all have read the news of Gudrun Wagner's passing I posted at 'Opera News' at the top of the page.

Wolfgang must be devastated; she was his supporter in every possible way. I fear the loss might be too much for him, he is not in the best of health either.  :'(

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: marvinbrown on December 08, 2007, 02:13:20 PM
  emotional level unlike anything else I have heard throughout this past year. 

The 4 operas of the Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger and Parsifal form the backbone (the spine) of my music collection.    So how about all you opera fans out there?  what Wagnerian operas have you been exploring lately?
  marvin
This past year I got to know Sawallisch's much underrated Ring Cycle. From start to finish an extremely solid recording with no frenetic or "milk the loud parts" moments along the veins of Boehm and Krauss. The only bad part is Hildegard Behrens sometimes sound rather wobbly vibratowise as Brunnhilde.

So you are awed by the Ring, Tristan and Parsifal. I think the audience at Bayreuth think the same way. Almost every live recording from there is pretty quiet. Some (like Boehm's Ring) you don't even think there is an audience.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:22:50 AM
This past year I got to know Sawallisch's much underrated Ring Cycle. From start to finish an extremely solid recording with no frenetic or "milk the loud parts" moments along the veins of Boehm and Krauss. The only bad part is Hildegard Behrens sometimes sound rather wobbly vibratowise as Brunnhilde.

Goodness! What a striking turnaround, PW!

I remember not long ago you felt a deep apprehension at my recommending this Sawallisch Ring. Remember? I had to fight you tooth and nail as I attempted to draw some much needed attention to this unheralded set.

But now look at us! In agreement. ;)

But, hey, in all seriousness, I feel a certain level of gratitude that someone's actually taken the time and effort to appraise this dark horse Ring. I feel all my carping hasn't been in vain after all...

Yes, I agree about Behrens. Warts and all, though, there's an artistic honesty and commitment to her singing that is certainly respectable. Little offends, and much delights. Overall, what Sawallisch (and the role) demands of her she delivers up in spades.



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: donwyn on December 10, 2007, 06:01:02 PM
Goodness! What a striking turnaround, PW!

I remember not long ago you felt a deep apprehension at my recommending this Sawallisch Ring. Remember? I had to fight you tooth and nail as I attempted to draw some much needed attention to this unheralded set.

But now look at us! In agreement. ;)

But, hey, in all seriousness, I feel a certain level of gratitude that someone's actually taken the time and effort to appraise this dark horse Ring. I feel all my carping hasn't been in vain after all...

Yes, I agree about Behrens. Warts and all, though, there's an artistic honesty and commitment to her singing that is certainly respectable. Little offends, and much delights. Overall, what Sawallisch (and the role) demands of her she delivers up in spades.

I have always liked Behrens. She gets a VERY bad rap because her voice is not really that of a dramatic soprano. But I liked her in the Levine cycle, where she is in better voice (but in the Sawallisch she is more expressive). I think she is analogous to Windgassen, both compensate for vocal shortcomings with artistry and insight.

I think the Sawallisch Ring is like a breath of fresh air (for lack of a better term). Orchestral and vocal balance is about ideal. The audience for the most part is mouse-quiet. The Bavarian State Opera Orchestra has that deep sound which is ideal for Wagner (although there are moments of ensemble lapse that is pretty astonishing since you would think they know this music by heart).

All in all not a bad $50 investment.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:39:43 PM
I think the Sawallisch Ring is like a breath of fresh air...

Yes, so apt...



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

marvinbrown

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:39:43 PM
I have always liked Behrens. She gets a VERY bad rap because her voice is not really that of a dramatic soprano. But I liked her in the Levine cycle, where she is in better voice (but in the Sawallisch she is more expressive). I think she is analogous to Windgassen, both compensate for vocal shortcomings with artistry and insight.


  I have to agree with you PW regarding Behrens.  I also have the Levine Ring and think she certainly looks the part and to a certain extent acts the part of Brunhilde well.  But you are right I too find her a bit subdued, her voice certainly isn't that of a dramatic soprano but she carries the role of Brunhilde well in the Levine DVD and those scenes between her and Wotan (James Morris) in Die Walkure are quite memorable.

  Going back  briefly  to a topic we were discussing earlier, what fascinates me most about Wagner's mature works (The Ring, Parsifal, Tristan, and Meistersinger) is the variety in musical texture between these pieces.  Wagner was a very daring composer who wasn't afraid to take risks.  With Tristan  it is very clear to me now that he wanted to do something quite extraordinary and different from the Ring and Meistersinger and I think he had a "stroke of genius" with that piece.  I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful. 

  marvin

 

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: marvinbrown on December 12, 2007, 02:55:09 AM
   I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful. 

  marvin

 
Hours ? There's the understatement of the year. :D

David Zalman

#210
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 12, 2007, 02:55:09 AMWagner was a very daring composer who wasn't afraid to take risks.  With Tristan  it is very clear to me now that he wanted to do something quite extraordinary and different from the Ring and Meistersinger and I think he had a "stroke of genius" with that piece.  I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful.

A "stroke of genius" indeed.  Tristan was Wagner's most UNconscious work; that is, it came to him in a rush of creative inspiration almost faster than he could write it down, and once he began writing the music in earnest, he completed the work in a matter of months, not years (actually, a total of a little more than a year and a half).  You can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."

marvinbrown

Quote from: David Zalman on December 12, 2007, 07:38:11 AM
A "stroke of genius" indeed.  Tristan was Wagner's most UNconscious work; that is, it came to him in a rush of creative inspiration almost faster than he could write it down, and once he began writing the music in earnest, he completed the work in a matter of months, not years (actually, a total of a little more than a year and a half).  You can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."

   Wow a matter of months, now that is certainly impressive!!  I would have imagined it would have taken years to complete Tristan given its complexity, over-whelmingly emotional music (especially Act 2 is astounding!!)  Perhaps the emotional turmoil (that love triangle Wagner found himself in with Otto and Mathilde Wesendonck) had some bearing on his creative impulses! 

  marvin

David Zalman

#212
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 14, 2007, 11:26:41 AMPerhaps the emotional turmoil (that love triangle Wagner found himself in with Otto and Mathilde Wesendonck) had some bearing on his creative impulses!

Almost certainly the other way round.  That was Wagner's way -- his standard MO -- always.

In rereading my last, I see I should have elaborated a little on my comment:

Quote from: David ZalmanYou can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."

Wagner's intent in writing Tristan was to produce an easy work that any professional opera company could mount.

So much for good intentions.

marvinbrown

Quote from: David Zalman on December 15, 2007, 07:57:59 AM
Almost certainly the other way round.  That was Wagner's way -- his standard MO -- always.

In rereading my last, I see I should have elaborated a little on my comment:

Wagner's intent in writing Tristan was to produce an easy work that any professional opera company could mount.

So much for good intentions.

  David, thanks for the clarification and the humorous comment at the end  :)!

  marvin

knight66

#214
In terms of chorus and scene changes, Tristan does fit the bill. In Rheingold and Siegfried, Wagner asks for all sorts of stage effects or monsters. It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

M forever

And why should he have written easier parts if that is what the music and the drama needed in his mind? Maybe there are also less good singers around today because they don't have the environment today to develop their voices carefully and gradually; at least that's what a lot of voice experts complain about. How "true" that is, I can not judge. It shouldn't be forgotten either that the pit in Bayreuth is covered and that orchestras back then most likely didn't play quite as loud (especially the brass) as they do today.

knight66

Quote from: knight on December 16, 2007, 12:10:03 AM
It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.

Mike

Joke comment, I don't use smilies. The first part of my comment was however serious and the demands of stagecraft and numbers of voices etc are very modest in comparison with anything from The Ring or Meistersingers.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

David Zalman

Quote from: knight on December 16, 2007, 12:10:03 AM
In terms of chorus and scene changes, Tristan does fit the bill. In Rheingold and Siegfried, Wagner asks for all sorts of stage effects or monsters. It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.

It's not just the writing for the voice but for the orchestra as well. In the beginning, orchestras and conductors didn't know what to make of the score.  It baffled them almost completely.

And I see I used not quite the right word is saying Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create "...an easy work that any professional opera company could mount."  A better way to have phrased it would have been to say that Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create a practical work that any professional opera company could mount.

Quote from: M forever on December 16, 2007, 06:24:13 AMIt shouldn't be forgotten either that the pit in Bayreuth is covered and that orchestras back then most likely didn't play quite as loud (especially the brass) as they do today.

At the time of the writing of Tristan, Bayreuth was merely a gleam in Wagner's eye.  Additionally, Wagner wrote Tristan with the ordinary opera house of the time specifically in mind, not his mere dream of an opera house built to his special needs and specifications.  That was a primary thought in his setting to work on Tristan when he did.

M forever

Sorry, hadn't read much of the discussion before knight's post, so I didn't get that you were talking *specifically* about Tristan. I thought you were talking more about the Ring.

marvinbrown

#219
Quote from: David Zalman on December 16, 2007, 01:25:22 PM
It's not just the writing for the voice but for the orchestra as well. In the beginning, orchestras and conductors didn't know what to make of the score.  It baffled them almost completely.

And I see I used not quite the right word is saying Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create "...an easy work that any professional opera company could mount."  A better way to have phrased it would have been to say that Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create a practical work that any professional opera company could mount.

At the time of the writing of Tristan, Bayreuth was merely a gleam in Wagner's eye.  Additionally, Wagner wrote Tristan with the ordinary opera house of the time specifically in mind, not his mere dream of an opera house built to his special needs and specifications.  That was a primary thought in his setting to work on Tristan when he did.

  Pardon the belated response but I have been away on holiday for a few weeks and only now did I get to this post.  With regards to "practicality" as it relates to Wagner's operas, in a recent documentary I saw on Wagner it has been suggested that part of the "allure" or "captivation" of Wagner is that his music dramas never really addressed practicalities and in a sense they are completely impossible to perform on stage as Wagner had envisaged.  Now whether this applies to Tristan I am not sure but as far as the Ring is concerned some of the stage directions that Wagner calls for are enough to make any opera stage director's job a living nightmare!! Not to mention of course the marathon roles that the singers had to commit themselves to which according to Wagnerian singer Deborah Polaski are "physically exhausting"!!

  marvin