Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Sergeant Rock

#220
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 08, 2007, 02:13:20 PM

What Wagnerian operas are you planning on purchasing next year? marvin

Hey, Marvin. My favorite Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal are conducted by Karajan. I'm planning to buy these to add to my Karajan collection:







I'm also thinking seriously about this Ring (yeah, like I need another Ring  ;D )



Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

marvinbrown

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2008, 08:37:16 AM
Hey, Marvin. My favorite Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal are conducted by Karajan. I'm planning to buy these to add to my Karajan collection:



Sarge

  An excellent choice with that Karajan Meistersinger Sarge, I have that same recording and I wore it out- I must have played it from start to finish well over 10 times.  The Dresden Staatskapelle truly "shines like old gold" in this recording- read the preface to the libretto as soon as you get this recording Sarge and you'll know what I am talking about  ;).  That recording is pure magic from the overture to the wonderfull quintet "Die selige Morgentraum-Duetweise" at the opening of the 4th CD and those last 15 minutes of the opera, when THE PRIZE SONG is played accompanied by the chorus are just heavenly  0:).  You are in for a real treat!!

  PS:  I also love Karajan's Parsifal with the Berliner Philharmoniker as well!! Some people criticize it for being a bit too polished, musically beautified,  but it suits me just fine.  Parsifal works quite well "Karajan style".  Also,  I have already ordered Bohm's Tristan und Isolde with Nilsson.  I don't really need another Tristan und Isolde (I have two recordings with Flagstad and the Barenboim DVD on DG) but the way Wagnerians rant and rave about that Bohm recording have caused me to cave in and buy it!!  Sadly however I do not have it in my budget to acquire another Ring Cycle-  I have Solti's and Levine DVD at the MET which will have to do for now. 

  marvin     

PSmith08

The Janowski Ring is really quite excellent. It might be a little light for some people, but I find its emphasis on internal and overall architecture quite engaging. While conservative Wagnerians will generally argue that such transparency is not-so-great, and I concede that they might be right, it is, still, nice to be able to see what's going on in the music at both a micro and macro level. 

Von Karajan's Meistersinger is the reference recording of the work. If Furtwängler's 1943 recording had been complete and in better sound, it would likely hold that spot, though Furtwängler's singers aren't as good as Von Karajan's. Orchestrally, though, I might still give the prize to Furtwängler, even if Von Karajan has the overall better set. I haven't heard the Abendroth set from the same Bayreuth season as Furtwängler.

M forever

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 05, 2008, 10:07:23 AM
The Janowski Ring is really quite excellent. It might be a little light for some people, but I find its emphasis on internal and overall architecture quite engaging. While conservative Wagnerians will generally argue that such transparency is not-so-great, and I concede that they might be right

Why might they be right? The scores have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of avery conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way.
What would these conservative Wagnerians say?

PSmith08

Quote from: M forever on January 05, 2008, 11:54:30 AM
Why might they be right? The scores have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obvious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of a very conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way.
What would these conservative Wagnerians say?

You answered your own question. The instrumental color is the primary objective, and you cannot concentrate on color when, to further the analogy, you're looking at individual brush-strokes. I don't think that there is much argument to that. Everything should be there to add up to Wagner's intent, but that process of addition is, by and large, unnecessary to the listener. Now, you might want to ask a real conservative Wagnerian, and there is at least one around at a given moment, if you want a better explanation.

Sergeant Rock

#225
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 05, 2008, 09:48:07 AM
An excellent choice with that Karajan Meistersinger Sarge...   

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 05, 2008, 10:07:23 AM
Karajan's Meistersinger is the reference recording of the work.

I don't expect Karajan's Lohengrin and Holländer to supercede long-time favorites (Holländer: Dorati and Klemperer; Lohengrin: Kempe and Keilberth) but I have high hopes for his Meistersinger. I thank you both for the encouragement.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Haffner

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2008, 06:54:15 AM
I don't expect Karajan's Lohengrin and Holländer to supercede long-time favorites (Holländer: Dorati and Klemperer; Lohengrin: Kempe and Keilberth) but I have high hopes for his Meistersinger. I thank you both for the encouragement.

Sarge





I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent. I still haven't made up my mind on the Ring..., or Lohengrin however.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Haffner on January 06, 2008, 12:37:25 PM
I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent.

I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni  ;D I'm particularly looking forward to Kurt Moll's Daland. But Klemperer has a unique way of conducting the score and his trio of Theo Adam, Anja Silja and Martti Talvela really appeals to me. The Dorati Dutchman is a sentimental favorite (the first opera I ever heard) and has the superb George London. But I'll retain an open mind and, despite my earlier comment, won't be prejudging Karajan's Dutchman.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

marvinbrown

Quote from: Haffner on January 06, 2008, 12:37:25 PM

I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent. I still haven't made up my mind on the Ring..., or Lohengrin however.

  Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive.  As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it.  I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

  marvin 

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
  Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive.  As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it.  I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

  marvin 

I'm not being original when I say that Solti and Karajan complement each other perfectly. Truth vs. Beauty. I prefer Solti's 'Götterdämmerung' and Karajan's 'Rheingold'. 'Walküre' and 'Siegfried' are more or less even, although Nilsson and Windgassen are electrifying in the last act of Solti's Siegfried. BUT- the opening to that same act is grander and more awe-inspiring with the slower Karajan - Solti's is more urgent... In short - you simply need to hear both. And it's a pity your local library doesn't have the Karajan.

Jez
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Haffner

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 05:14:11 AM
I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni  ;D

Sarge





Love that one!

Sergeant Rock

#231
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring....I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2008, 05:44:33 AM
I'm not being original when I say that Solti and Karajan complement each other perfectly. Truth vs. Beauty.

I could counter that with a bit of Keats ("Beauty is truth, truth beauty") but I won't. I understand what you mean.

Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2008, 05:44:33 AM
I prefer Solti's 'Götterdämmerung' and Karajan's 'Rheingold'. 'Walküre' and 'Siegfried' are more or less even, although Nilsson and Windgassen are electrifying in the last act of Solti's Siegfried. BUT- the opening to that same act is grander and more awe-inspiring with the slower Karajan - Solti's is more urgent... In short - you simply need to hear both. And it's a pity your local library doesn't have the Karajan.

My take is similar but slightly different. I too, in general if not specifics, prefer Karajan's Rheingold and Solti's Götterdämmerung but I think Solti's Walküre is the weak link in his cycle while Karajan and the siblings Jon Vickers and Janowitz have never been bettered, especially in the first act. Karajan has power when needed in Siegfried...but...I understand the criticism aimed at Jess Thomas. In the light of Gerhard Stolze's strong Mimi (edit: oops, I mean Mime: Stolze rarely sang Bohème  ;D ), Thomas doesn't have the requisite Heldentenor chops. Still, it's a portrayal I've come to enjoy. I just needed to forgo preconceptions and accept his Siegfried for what it is: not the Übermensch and Teutonic ideal of the Hero, but a gullible and still wet-behind-the-ears youth who has a lot of growing up to do. Not traditional, but it works for me. I think, though, Marvin, that it might disappoint you after Solti's tour-de-force. But, I really can't help thinking, when I hear Windgassen, that here is a middle-aged Siegfried. Not exactly ideal either. That's why we need the '53 Krauss or the '55 Keilberth, too.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue...

I completely understand. I had only one Ring for about five years before I could finally afford a second (and then only because a discount club in Germany had the Böhm for the remarkable price of 99 DM). And then ten years went by before I had my third. It's been a lifelong process of acquisition. But like the Ring itself, there's no need to hurry  :)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

J.Z. Herrenberg

#233
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:19:12 AM
That's why we need the '53 Krauss or the '55 Keilberth, too.

I downloaded the Krauss last month (from Classic Music Mobile), and after listening to the last act of Siegfried I was very impressed by his command of structure and his well-judged tempi. Apart from some great singing, of course!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Sergeant Rock

#234
Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
I downloaded the Krauss last month (from Classic Music Mobile), and after listening to the last act of Siegfried I was very impressed by his command of structure and his well-judged tempi. Apart from some great singing, of course!

Agree. Among the Siegfrieds I own, the Krauss is my favorite. (I haven't heard Keilberth yet but now that Testament is offering the entire Ring cycle in one box, at half the price of the single issues, it may be something I'll purchase this year too.)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

M forever

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 05:14:11 AM
I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni  ;D

I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?

Haffner

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:29:31 AM
I completely understand. I had only one Ring for about five years before I could finally afford a second (and then only because a discount club in Germany had the Böhm for the remarkable price of 99 DM). And then ten years went by before I had my third. It's been a lifelong process of acquisition. But like the Ring itself, there's no need to hurry  :)

Sarge





And now Sarge can laugh at my envy!

Haffner

Quote from: M forever on January 07, 2008, 10:39:30 AM
I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?




Do you mean in regard Karajan's Don Giovanni, M.? I don't know about Sarge, but I really loved the performances of Battle and Ramey. And I do tralize that HvK tends to Beethoven/Wagner-ize Mozart a bit. I like the change.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: M forever on January 07, 2008, 10:39:30 AM
I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?

I thought it was here but yeah, it may have been at the old forum, M. I'll look for it and if I can't find it, I'll retype my explanation.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

David Zalman

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 05, 2008, 07:55:15 AM
  Pardon the belated response but I have been away on holiday for a few weeks and only now did I get to this post.  With regards to "practicality" as it relates to Wagner's operas, in a recent documentary I saw on Wagner it has been suggested that part of the "allure" or "captivation" of Wagner is that his music dramas never really addressed practicalities and in a sense they are completely impossible to perform on stage as Wagner had envisaged.  Now whether this applies to Tristan I am not sure but as far as the Ring is concerned some of the stage directions that Wagner calls for are enough to make any opera stage director's job a living nightmare!! Not to mention of course the marathon roles that the singers had to commit themselves to which according to Wagnerian singer Deborah Polaski are "physically exhausting"!!

You're right about Wagner's envisaged staging of the Ring.  It's impossible.  Tristan, however, is a piece of cake.

You might find this article on the staging of Wagner's music dramas by our friend ACD to be of some interest.

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2005/04/staging_ithe_ri.html