Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

David Zalman

#240
Quote from: M forever on January 05, 2008, 11:54:30 AM
Why might they be right? The scores [of Wagner's music dramas] have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of avery conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way.  What would these conservative Wagnerians say?

They (and that includes myself) would say:

Quote from: A.C. DouglasWagner's musico-dramatic and symphonic contrapuntal genius is almost always realized in the massing, rarely in details of inner line, and [Karl] Böhm's transparent and razor-edge-precise readings of Wagner wherein the revealing of inner line is prominent are therefore just plain wrong (i.e., un-Wagnerian). They're wrong because while precision and the revealing of inner line in the music of, say, Mozart or Beethoven is to reveal the very soul of the music, precision and the revealing of inner line in Wagner's music serves only to reveal how the sorcerer accomplished his magic. Not a good thing, not a good thing at all, as any self-respecting sorcerer will attest.

ACD's complete post on this may be read here:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/08/wagner_musings.html

David Zalman

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive.  As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it.  I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

Karajan had the bizarre idea that Wagner should sound as lyrical and intimate as Verdi.  Needless to say, his reading of the Ring is about as un-Wagnerian as it's possible to be.  His Ring set has been dubbed by Wagnerians The Chamber Ring.  Unkind, certainly, but not far off the mark.


M forever

So you know more about what is "Wagnerian" than Böhm, Karajan, or Strauss? Or Janowski, for that matter? Or a whole lot of other conductors who explored that aspect of Wagner's music to a certain degree?

No, the above nonsense quoted by you is just something which people say who only grasp one particular aspect of such a complex musical world and declare it to be the one and only decisive aspect. Very typical for people who don't understand a particular cultural context and only look at it from the outside.
Just one question: can you even pronounce the name "Richard Wagner"?

But - thanks for the free entertainment!

David Zalman

#243
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:01:23 PM
So you know more about what is "Wagnerian" than Böhm, Karajan, or Strauss? Or Janowski, for that matter? Or a whole lot of other conductors who explored that aspect of Wagner's music to a certain degree?

No, the above nonsense quoted by you is just something which people say who only grasp one particular aspect of such a complex musical world and declare it to be the one and only decisive aspect. Very typical for people who don't understand a particular cultural context and only look at it from the outside.
Just one question: can you even pronounce the name "Richard Wagner"?

But - thanks for the free entertainment!

You asked what would conservative Wagnerians say.  I assumed you were not asking what would some Wagner fan say, but what would an informed conservative Wagnerian say, and so answered you accordingly by quoting one of the most informed conservative Wagnerians of my acquaintance, and one who is also conservatory trained as a musician and conductor.

As for your rhetorical about Karajan and Boehm (neither of whom were conservative Wagnerians, not so BTW), you merely displayed your ignorance.  Both Karajan and Boehm knew *exactly* how Wagner should go -- and hated it.  That's why they both decided unilaterally to change the way Wagner should go, each according to his own tastes in the matter.  As for Strauss and Janowski, the former was notorious for NOT knowing how Wagner should go, and the latter is simply a Wagnerian nullity and so doesn't count.

M forever

Quote from: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 08:18:00 PM
As for Strauss and Janowski, the former was notorious for NOT knowing how Wagner should go, and the latter is simply a Wagnerian nullity and so doesn't count.

So, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"? And if Janowski is a "Wagnerian nullity", what are you? A negative quantity? Who *are* you to make such statements? Where can I get your Ring recording with an orchestra on the level of the Staatskapelle Dresden?
And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?

If you are such an expert for Wagner, you must know a lot about German culture. Do you know what the word "Schwachkopf" means?

PSmith08

Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 08:58:48 PM
So, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"? And if Janowski is a "Wagnerian nullity", what are you? A negative quantity? Who *are* you to make such statements? Where can I get your Ring recording with an orchestra on the level of the Staatskapelle Dresden?
And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?

If you are such an expert for Wagner, you must know a lot about German culture. Do you know what the word "Schwachkopf" means?

If you have an issue with Dave's comments, you'd do better to register your objections with ACD. I read most of these arguments in the post "Have A Merry Nibelungen Christmas" (21 December 2005), including a bowdlerization of this quip, "Karajan because of his ludicrous and perverse conceit that Wagner should sound as lyrical as Verdi."

Take it to the source, I say. You'll also be able to engage fully with the arguments, as opposed to summaries, quotes, and near-quotes.

David Zalman

#246
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 08:58:48 PMSo, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"?  [...]  And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?

Were you not such a Wagner ignoramus (and a belligerent one at that) you would know the answers to those questions.

Strauss was notorious for not knowing how Wagner should go according to those who were in a direct line of first-hand witnesses to how Wagner himself said his works should go.  And as for knowing what Karajan and Boehm really thought about this matter, they told me -- along with the whole world, or rather, those of the whole world who were interested enough to take note of such things.  I simply repeated editorially what each said about it, including how each said he intended to change how Wagner should go.

M forever

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 08, 2008, 09:06:27 PM
Take it to the source, I say. You'll also be able to engage fully with the arguments, as opposed to summaries, quotes, and near-quotes.

Thanks for the tips, but...nah...why should I waste my time discussing such matters concerning my own culture with idiots like him who don't know the first thing about that? Not even the very, very first thing. That doesn't make sense. That guy is just a dumb piece of crap, what in my (and Wagner's) language is called "ein dummes Stück Scheisse", somebody who in the circles of his equally ignorant friends may pass for some kind of expert, but who can't fool anybody who knows just a little bit about that subject. Just a tiny little bit.
I find it highly amusing though how so many people try to appropriate elements of my culture without having even the slightest bit of insights into it, people who really don't know anything about it - at all. That really amuses me. That would be like me pontificating about the fineties of, say, Chinese culture, without even knowing 2 words in their language. Like this "Wichskopf" D. Zalman here who probably can't speak 2 words of German, but he thinks he knows what "Wagnerian" is. Zum totlachen.

marvinbrown

Quote from: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 04:01:16 PM
You're right about Wagner's envisaged staging of the Ring.  It's impossible.  Tristan, however, is a piece of cake.

You might find this article on the staging of Wagner's music dramas by our friend ACD to be of some interest.

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2005/04/staging_ithe_ri.html



  Thank you David for the link.  I found it a most interesting if not challenging read.  I especially found quite refreshing AC Douglas' take that an opera stage director should take a "minimalist" approach to staging the Ring in order for the drama to be fully realized through its principal carrier, the music!  But AC Douglas does refer briefly to the cinematic potential, in lieu of an unrealizable stage production, of the Ring. Perhaps it is time for a "Hollywood" big budget production of Wagner's 4 opera epic, I think I would like to see what Steven Spielberg or George Lucas could do with the Ring.

  marvin

PSmith08

Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 11:44:13 PM
Thanks for the tips, but...nah...why should I waste my time discussing such matters concerning my own culture with idiots like him who don't know the first thing about that? Not even the very, very first thing. That doesn't make sense. That guy is just a dumb piece of crap, what in my (and Wagner's) language is called "ein dummes Stück Scheisse", somebody who in the circles of his equally ignorant friends may pass for some kind of expert, but who can't fool anybody who knows just a little bit about that subject. Just a tiny little bit.
I find it highly amusing though how so many people try to appropriate elements of my culture without having even the slightest bit of insights into it, people who really don't know anything about it - at all. That really amuses me. That would be like me pontificating about the fineties of, say, Chinese culture, without even knowing 2 words in their language. Like this "Wichskopf" D. Zalman here who probably can't speak 2 words of German, but he thinks he knows what "Wagnerian" is. Zum totlachen.

Eh. Just throwing that out there.

I find it amusing that Karl Böhm comes in for the ire of our ACD-proxy, as Böhm received a favorable recommendation from no less than Karl Muck to no less than Bruno Walter. Richard Strauss, too, had worked with and received a similar recommendation from Hans von Bülow, who was - as any Wagnerian would know - an associate of Wagner, to understate the matter. Indeed, Von Bülow premiered Tristan und Isolde in Munich.

History is what it is, despite the best efforts of those who would have it otherwise.

Don

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 09, 2008, 01:21:56 PM
Eh. Just throwing that out there.

I find it amusing that Karl Böhm comes in for the ire of our ACD-proxy,

It's no big deal, but I've never thought he was an ACD-proxy (just an ACD).

PSmith08

Quote from: Don on January 09, 2008, 01:29:51 PM
It's no big deal, but I've never thought he was an ACD-proxy (just an ACD).

Knowing ACD as glancingly as I do, from another board and some other interactions, I doubt that he would post under an assumed name. It doesn't seem like his style. He could also make the arguments (from memory) without recourse to quoting himself.

It doesn't add up, but I admit that the thought has crossed my mind.

marvinbrown


  I am saddened to read that this thread has taken a turn for the worst with hostilities and accusations being traded between various GMG members.  I hope we can return to a more civilized way of dealing with each other and most importantly discussing Wagner.  I would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music: Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music? Also can someone provide a link to  ACD's article that address this issue, if available?   

  marvin
 
 

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
 Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music?
Didn't Wagner always complained that the fast parts of his music is always conducted too slowly and the slow parts are always conducted too fast ;)

M forever

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
I would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music 

That's the point: like with any other complex body of musical works, there is no single, "correct", "Wagnerian", approach to interpretation. That idea is just a cliché concept. Which is seriously contradicted by some very relevant interpreters of his music (such as the above mentioned Strauss, Karajan, Böhm, Janowski, and many others).

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music?

Yep, they are called "the scores". Wagner also left a fairly extensive body of writing about interpreting music (his and other composers'). But if a conductor just sticks to the scores and tries to bring out the very nuanced and complex way of writing - instead of turning everything into some kind of bombastic sound sauce to satisfy some vague and generalized idea of "Wagnerian" sound -, that is already a very relevant contribution in itself. Saying that all the interpreters had absolutely no clue - or did, but decided to d other things for whatever reasons is complete nonsense. And certainly not the basis for a serious discussion of this very complex subject. I find it just silly if someone thinks he has a very strong opinion about a musical culture he obviously doesn't understand and all he has to say to back up his "views" is summarily dismiss artists who are an integral part of that musical culture.

Haffner

Quote from: M forever on January 10, 2008, 09:37:37 AM
I find it just silly if someone thinks he has a very strong opinion about a musical culture he obviously doesn't understand and all he has to say to back up his "views" is summarily dismiss artists who are an integral part of that musical culture.






I find this to be a shared peeve, and agree.

David Zalman

#256
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AMI would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music: Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music? Also can someone provide a link to  ACD's article that address this issue, if available?

Interestingly enough, although Wagner wrote at length concerning just about everything under the sun about which he had the most untoward ideas, and wrote at length about the staging of his operas and music dramas, he wrote very little about how his music should be conducted.  There are, however, two publications that do just that.  The first is an account written by Heinrich Porges, a member of Wagner's inner circle, the account written at Wagner's express command and approved by him.  It's titled, Die Bühnenproben zu den Bayreuther Festspielen des Jahres 1876 (The Stage Rehearsals for the Bayreuth Festival of 1876), and ACD has a detailed post on that publication.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/07/firsthand_witne.html

There's also the critical extended essay written by Wagner himself titled, Über das Dirigiren (On Conducting), which can be read in an English translation by Edward Dannreuther titled, Wagner on Conducting which can be ordered from Amazon.com at:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Conducting-Richard/dp/0486259323/ref=reader_auth_dp

Also, there's another article by ACD on this subject that you may find of interest.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2007/06/on_reading_a_sc.html

UPDATE: There seem to be two versions online of ACD's article given in the first link above.  I e-mailed ACD asking which one to link.  He just responded saying he wasn't aware there were two versions, but went looking after receiving my e-mail and found the second version which was only slightly different from the first.  He's now deleted the superfluous version, and placed the correct version at the link given above.

Guarnerius

Hello Wagner Fans! :)


Such a complex conversation on one composer. But finally, the main thing is, if we enjoy his masterworks or not? When the answer is negative, what's the use to complain it here - better to choose some other site, it is that simple! ;D Or launch totally an another page for those who dislikes Wagner. $:) Besides, it is useless to accuse the composer Wagner himself about certain details, which have nothing to do with him as a person! Not to mention other members in this forum trying to change opinions with decent manners. 0:)

Anyway, there is no doubt that his works can B really "hypnotizing", guess it was Marwin, who said there earlier very fine, that Wagner operas R "psychological thrillers with symphonic soundtrack". Indeed! They R like hometheatres with classical music, "scary movies in past days", Gesamtkunstwerke with audible multi channeled special effects and fascinating mythical stories.

If I had to choose my own favourite work by Wagner, it would B Parsifal. I like that symphonic texture in it, the other choice would B Götterdämmerung, a conclusion of that exciting adventure of Ring des Nibelungen. In both of them there is a feeling of complete fulfilment, reaching of wholeness after the huge challenging adventure. On the other hand, there is also a sense of longing farewall and joy of waiting to C again. That's the genius in music - to make the listener return to the composition and start enjoying it once again, perhaps discovering some new details unseen before. Hmmm... with a great excitement I'm gonna find next the fresh EMI recording of Tristan & Isolde, starring Domingo, Stemme, Bostridge, ROHCG, cond. Pappano. Somebody have already listening experiences and comments on it?


With Friendly Greetings and all the Best Regards especially to Marwin, Michel, Anne, Solitary Wanderer, Uffeviking and all the Wagnerites. ;)


P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention: I would need to ask some advice, when I have a toothache, could it B originating from Wagner music, should I change to another composer? ;D What about the weather conditions, does it change more sunny if I choose instead of Wagner for example some Mozart? :P Cheers...
"Silence is the Greatest Music" (Herbert von Karajan)

Wendell_E

Quote from: Guarnerius on January 12, 2008, 05:10:17 AM
Hello Wagner Fans! :)
P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention: I would need to ask some advice, when I have a toothache, could it B originating from Wagner music, should I change to another composer?

Hmmm.  I don't know about toothaches, but I've always found that listening to Der Fliegende Holländer is great for curing headaches.  Bruckner symphonies work, too.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

paulb

#259
Quote from: David Zalman on January 10, 2008, 11:55:18 AM
Interestingly enough, although Wagner wrote at length concerning just about everything under the sun about which he had the most untoward ideas, and wrote at length about the staging of his operas and music dramas, he wrote very little about how his music should be conducted.  There are, however, two publications that do just that.  The first is an account written by Heinrich Porges, a member of Wagner's inner circle, the account written at Wagner's express command and approved by him.  It's titled, Die Bühnenproben zu den Bayreuther Festspielen des Jahres 1876 (The Stage Rehearsals for the Bayreuth Festival of 1876), and ACD has a detailed post on that publication.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/07/firsthand_witne.html

There's also the critical extended essay written by Wagner himself titled, Über das Dirigiren (On Conducting), which can be read in an English translation by Edward Dannreuther titled, Wagner on Conducting which can be ordered from Amazon.com at:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Conducting-Richard/dp/0486259323/ref=reader_auth_dp

Also, there's another article by ACD on this subject that you may find of interest.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2007/06/on_reading_a_sc.html

UPDATE: There seem to be two versions online of ACD's article given in the first link above.  I e-mailed ACD asking which one to link.  He just responded saying he wasn't aware there were two versions, but went looking after receiving my e-mail and found the second version which was only slightly different from the first.  He's now deleted the superfluous version, and placed the correct version at the link given above.


In my rather limited experience of the various recordiings of the Ring, only 3 have made a  impression enough to fork out close to $100 on each.
Bohm is not among the 3. If you read the reviews on amazon of Bohm's , most all agree the tempos are "TOO FAST" "WHY?" So that closes that possiblity for me. Not sure why i would add a  4th recording, but if there was one to at least come close to the 3 I have, I'd seriously considering getting it off amzon's used list.
And also the Kraus, which has  a  extremely devoted fan base, "oh man its the one, the finest ever in history, no doubt about it", is not among the 3 I have. I had the Kraus, the casting was close to pemier class, though at times overall slightly less than the three I have. Kraus conducting is just too sloshy to make the Ring come alive and its not just the recessed sound factor.

I also own none from  Kna, though i am sure among his many recordings , there may be some of value.

Wagner 's ring should not be appraiched ina   finely chisled manner, as some here suggest, the mythical story telling of the work should have this mystical mysteroius mood, but at times of climaxes and cresendos, then is the time to leave the brooding undefined mode and break the clouds to allow bright beams of sunlight.
Takes both modalites of testures.
But Kraus is too sludge like. Not easy to make the low tonal parts to come off as not being cold ,frozen, dragging, takes a   special conductor to do this feat of bringing warmth. Furtwangler was able to bring a  orch such as the Italian to such a   level of effects, no other conductor could manage sucha   challenge. The Italians in Wagner? Yes, and with stunning results, A true magician!
So now you know one of the 3 I have found most successful in this most challenging of operatic music.

Obviously the other 2 are from the Bayreuth.
I made some comments on the 3 rings over at amazon.

Strange how if just one cast member is slightly off in form my interest correspondingly falls off.
There's hardly a  weak part in these 3 Rings, as yet as least I;ve not discovered any, and doubt there is any.

Relatively new to Wagner and will scan the interesting posts in the topic that I;'ve missed since away.,.