Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:28:22 AM
By the way Marvin I think you were asking about the Bach cantatas a while back and whether you'd got the measure of them or not. Well I do not think they're invested with Bach's greastest thought- they're good but not great music, as you sensed to begin with...

Well, I do think they're invested with some of Bach's greatest thought. Not all of them, but many, and not necessarily the so-called "popular" ones. And I've heard all 200 of them, not just the 30 Marvin knows and has apparently "given up" on. I spent $240 USD for the entire Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set from Berkshire Outlet, or about $4 a CD, and no purchase of mine was ever better. At their finest they're great and not just good music, no matter what Marvin sensed to begin with.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Sean

That's a good price- I'll be having a look on Amazon.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:55:33 AM
That's a good price- I'll be having a look on Amazon.

Why bother, if you're so sure they're not such great music? Those of us not so confident of our personal opinions can find the 60-CD set new at US Amazon for under $190.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

uffeviking

Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:37:55 AM
Marv, I notice you have the Knappertzbusch Parsifal, I've heard it, along with the Levine and Jurowski live,

Sean, was this Vladimir Jurowski? And where did you see it live? Do you know if it is available on CD or DVD? I couldn't find any record of him conducting any Wagner. And you are too young to have attended live performances by Vladimir's father!  :)

PSmith08

Quote from: Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 07:39:57 AM
Well, I do think they're invested with some of Bach's greatest thought. Not all of them, but many, and not necessarily the so-called "popular" ones. And I've heard all 200 of them, not just the 30 Marvin knows and has apparently "given up" on. I spent $240 USD for the entire Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set from Berkshire Outlet, or about $4 a CD, and no purchase of mine was ever better. At their finest they're great and not just good music, no matter what Marvin sensed to begin with.

I have my doubts about the musical sense of anyone who is not moved by the Bach cantatas at some level or another. Listening to BWV 34, "O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe," for example, and not seeing a genius at work is worrisome. No, Bach's cantatas are not "invested with Bach's greatest thought." They are Bach's greatest thought. A project that massive, that wide-ranging, cannot be but one of the greatest monuments to religion in the Western tradition.

Wagner was a great intellect, but even he must have pause when confronted with Bach. I once argued that all music after Bach is either an agreement with or a response to that which he accomplished. I'm not sure that I wouldn't argue as much today.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 09:05:53 AM
I have my doubts about the musical sense of anyone who is not moved by the Bach cantatas at some level or another. Listening to BWV 34, "O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe," for example, and not seeing a genius at work is worrisome. No, Bach's cantatas are not "invested with Bach's greatest thought." They are Bach's greatest thought. A project that massive, that wide-ranging, cannot be but one of the greatest monuments to religion in the Western tradition.

Absolutely. Over a period of about 4 months, I went through the entire 60-CD set of sacred cantatas in BWV sequence, and the experience was revelatory. Any number of previously unknown treasures.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

marvinbrown

Quote from: Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 09:09:53 AM
Absolutely. Over a period of about 4 months, I went through the entire 60-CD set of sacred cantatas in BWV sequence, and the experience was revelatory. Any number of previously unknown treasures.

  Gentlemen...please...this is a thread about Wagner not Bach's cantatas.  Let's stick to discussing Wagner shall we!

  marvin 

Sean

Quote from: uffeviking on January 22, 2008, 09:00:39 AM
Sean, was this Vladimir Jurowski? And where did you see it live? Do you know if it is available on CD or DVD? I couldn't find any record of him conducting any Wagner. And you are too young to have attended live performances by Vladimir's father!  :)

Uffe, I must admit I'm not absolutely sure it was Jurowski and I did a quick search before. I saw the Welsh National Opera production in 2003 I think it was, with Sara Fulgoni as a fantastic Kundry, in very imaginative and very serious settings.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 09:57:19 AM
  Gentlemen...please...this is a thread about Wagner not Bach's cantatas.  Let's stick to discussing Wagner shall we!

  marvin 

I didn't bring it up. But having seen the comment, I wasn't going to let it go unanswered.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

PSmith08

Quote from: Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 10:05:15 AM
I didn't bring it up. But having seen the comment, I wasn't going to let it go unanswered.

Zing.

In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.

Don

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:20:55 PM
Zing.

In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.

Are you talking about a long pass or a short pass?  It's good to know the parameters.

PSmith08

Quote from: Don on January 22, 2008, 12:31:02 PM
Are you talking about a long pass or a short pass?  It's good to know the parameters.

Well, if the defense is particularly skilled at stopping the run, I'd say a screen pass with the tight end running around to receive and get at least the conversion. If we can fake the defense out well enough, I'd say TD.

I remember a game this year where the opponent ran the screen often enough to get us expecting it and defending appropriately, only to go for the long pass. That game was won on a last-second field goal by a kicker making his collegiate debut. We were tied 21-21, and it looked like we were going to run it into OT and salvage the situation there. The opponent had an incredible drive, and got them within a long FG range. The guy hit it. My stomach hit the deck when I saw it go through the uprights. 24-21.

Don

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:44:15 PM
Well, if the defense is particularly skilled at stopping the run, I'd say a screen pass with the tight end running around to receive and get at least the conversion. If we can fake the defense out well enough, I'd say TD.

I remember a game this year where the opponent ran the screen often enough to get us expecting it and defending appropriately, only to go for the long pass. That game was won on a last-second field goal by a kicker making his collegiate debut. We were tied 21-21, and it looked like we were going to run it into OT and salvage the situation there. The opponent had an incredible drive, and got them within a long FG range. The guy hit it. My stomach hit the deck when I saw it go through the uprights. 24-21.

My sympathies.  Any chance that rookie might switch to your college?

PSmith08

Quote from: Don on January 22, 2008, 12:53:08 PM
My sympathies.  Any chance that rookie might switch to your college?

Not likely. It was the big rivalry game, so there was more to it than just the game. I don't know if I can recall much Wabash-DePauw transferring in either direction: it seems that once you've chosen, you're staying put.

Wittenberg had a kicker that seemed like he had a cannon for a leg. If we were stealing kickers, then that's the guy I'd want. He was good. Stuff I wouldn't have thought he would have an easy time with looked real smooth. Accurate, too.

Don

Isn't anyone going to say that this thread is about Wagner, not football?

J.Z. Herrenberg

This thread is about Wagner, not football!  $:)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

marvinbrown

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:20:55 PM
Zing.

In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.

 Well one of the many highlights of Die Meistersinger is the transition from the overture to the vocal part of the opera.  That overture is wonderfull and after roughly 10 min it reaches a climax and suddenly ends, almost unexpectedly and we find ourselves in a church listening to the chorus of the congregation singing the service's final choral, " Da zu dir der Heiland kam"- "When the Saviour came to thee", the music is so gloriously "holy" I am sure J.S Bach would have approved of it! How's that for "without something more" than a passing reference to J.S. Bach PSmith08?

 marvin

Don

Quote from: Jezetha on January 22, 2008, 01:26:10 PM
This thread is about Wagner, not football!  $:)

Thanks, I needed that.

PSmith08

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 01:32:50 PM
  Well one of the many highlights of Die Meistersinger is the transition from the overture to the vocal part of the opera.  That overture is wonderfull and after roughly 10 min it reaches a climax and suddenly ends, almost unexpectedly and we find ourselves in a church listening to the chorus of the congregation singing the service's final choral, " Da zu dir der Heiland kam"- "When the Saviour came to thee", the music is so gloriously "holy" I am sure J.S Bach would have approved of it! How's that for "without something more" than a passing reference to J.S. Bach PSmith08?

Very nearly satisfactory. Of course, a more serious approach would be to discuss the contrapuntal nature of the overture, and Wagner's masterful balancing of the various orchestral voices - so masterful, indeed, that they blend into a seamless orchestral whole. At the risk of implying that Bach is "der Anfang und das Ende" of counterpoint and harmony, I would say that whole prelude owes an enormous stylistic debt to Bach.

bhodges

Looking forward to seeing Tristan und Isolde at the Met in March, with the following cast.  It might be my favorite Wagner opera.

Conductor: James Levine
Isolde: Deborah Voigt
Brangäne: Michelle DeYoung
Tristan: Ben Heppner
Kurwenal: Eike Wilm Schulte
King Marke: Matti Salminen

I love this production, which I've seen once before.  (Not everyone agrees, as these Amazon comments on the 2004 DVD show.)  But if anything this cast is even better (IMHO) than the one on the DVD.

--Bruce