Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
Webern is more user friendly  ;D

The ideal composer for our busy modern lives.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

uffeviking

There are a few advantages to being retired and living alone: I make it a point to set aside each afternoon for my concert or opera or documentary watching. If Wagner is on the schedule, it's one act per day.


marvinbrown

#602
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
It's tough, even when one is retired, to find the three or four or more hours needed to give these works the attention they deserve. Webern is more user friendly  ;D

Sarge

  Sarge, I am surprised to tread this.  I have a career, have an active social life, am in a relationship and I still have time to sit and listen/watch a Wagnerian opera.  Usually I reserve the 5:00 -9:00 PM slot after work for Wagner.  That's a good 4 hours to appreciate my favorite composer (The Meistersinger  0:)).  I also have the luxury of working from home every now and then, I'll play Wagner as I am working. 

  marvin

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 02:24:07 AM
  Sarge, I am surprised to tread this.  I have a career, have an active social life, am in a relationship and I still have time to sit and listen/watch a Wagnerian opera.  Usually I reserve the 5:00 -9:00 PM slot after work for Wagner.  That's a good 4 hours to appreciate my favorite composer (The Meistersinger  0:)).  I also have the luxury of working from home every now and then, I'll play Wagner as I am working. 

  marvin

My problem, Marvin--and it is self-inflicted--is that I like too much music: nearly every style, period and genre, and not just classical. I could listen to Wagner more but then I'd be neglecting composers I love just as much. And you have to admit Wagner does take a considerable amount of time. At my age I'm quickly running out of that commodity.

Sometimes I wish I could focus on a select few composers (many here seem to do that) but I do like variety. I'm probably doomed to listening to my top 300 composers until the day I die  :D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

marvinbrown

#604
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2008, 05:20:46 AM
My problem, Marvin--and it is self-inflicted--is that I like too much music: nearly every style, period and genre, and not just classical. I could listen to Wagner more but then I'd be neglecting composers I love just as much. And you have to admit Wagner does take a considerable amount of time. At my age I'm quickly running out of that commodity.

Sometimes I wish I could focus on a select few composers (many here seem to do that) but I do like variety. I'm probably doomed to listening to my top 300 composers until the day I die  :D

Sarge

  First of all let me wish you a long, healthy, happy and  fruitful life,  :)........and don't ever think about leaving GMG!! 

  Liking too much music, I would hardly call that a problem- it is a luxury!  Yes Wagner takes too much time, I realized recently that I should be paying more attention to other composers.  As you can see my avatar has changed and now I am revisiting R. Strauss and concentrating on his operas.  The fact of the matter remains: There is too much good music and so very little time to appreciate it fully that a listening schedule seems necessary.  For the next few weeks, no Wagner for me but a Richard Strauss marathon.  Here's what's on the menu:

  1) Elektra
  2) Salome
  3) Der Rosenkavalier
  4) Ariadne auf naxos
  5) Die Frau ohne schaten
  6) Arabella
  7) Capriccio (I didn't know I had a recording of this opera  :o until I went "digging"  ;D into my collection)
  8 ) Daphne

  Stamina built from Wagnerian operas should come in handy here  ;D

  PS: What do you think of my new signature?

  marvin
 

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:26:08 PM

All one has to do is listen to Varnay or Flagstad or Norman or Nilsson's videos after Callas's to understand why I feel that way.

Sarge

Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.

As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.

\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Cato

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 15, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.

As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.


(My emphasis above)

A few items came to mind through the above adjectives: Jessye Norman's performance of Tove in Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in (one of ?) the first CD's of that work with James Levine and the Boston Symphony (the sound is dreadful: no spaciousness, no sense of an atmosphere larger than life).

The same work on a different recording: Chailly's performance with Brigitte Fassbinder as the Wood Dove: talk about passion and vulnerability combined with outrage!

And Fassbinder and Levine lead me to Strauss' Elektra with Hildegard Behrens in the title role.  One might not think of Elektra as feminine or vulnerable, but one sees that in Behrens' Met performance, especially in the scene with Orestes: I have a tape of a PBS broadcast from about 20 years ago, which for some reason has never been sold commercially, which is another tragedy!   ???

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 05:40:14 AM
 
  1) Elektra
  2) Salome
  3) Der Rosenkavalier
  4) Ariadne auf naxos
  5) Die Frau ohne schaten
  6) Arabella
  7) Capriccio (I didn't know I had a recording of this opera  :o until I went "digging"  ;D into my collection)
  8 ) Daphne

CDs or DVDs? Conductors, casts...a list please.


Quote from: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 05:40:14 AM
PS: What do you think of my new signature?


I think I'm glad a king's command no longer has the authority of law, otherwise I would have missed Elektra at Covent Garden in 1972; missed the greatest operatic experience of my life.

The quote is funny and just goes to show that "lofty birth" does not bestow artistic taste.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

#608
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 15, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.

My apologies if I came across as facetious or simplistic. That wasn't my intent. By citing and comparing those singers to Callas I merely meant to point out the obvious: that they were Wagnerian sopranos and Callas wasn't. Callas didn't have the voice to be a star at Bayreuth anymore than Nilsson had the voice to sing Lucia at La Scala. That her incomparable vocal acting allowed her to sing a very affecting Isolde in the studio doesn't alter the fact that her voice was wrong for the part. At least that's the way I hear her. And since she didn't pursue a career in Wagnerian roles, I assume she knew that to be true.

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 15, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.

I don't disagree. Neither Nilsson nor Flagstad are my favorite Isoldes for precisely the reasons you give. I didn't even own the Böhm Tristan until I bought the Bayreuth box last month. I too want a more vulnerable, feminine Isolde (and Brünnhilde in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung where she's no longer a goddess but a woman). My preferred modern Isoldes are Behrens, Price and Dernesch (I haven't heard Waltraud Meier or Stemme or Voigt), and I agree with you that Frida Leider is the ideal.  But having said that, I can't deny the critical consensus that Nilsson and Flagstad are superb Isoldes even if not my preferred singers in the role. Callas isn't in their league. But switch to her league and it's an entirely different ball game  ;)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Anne

#609
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.

Cato

Quote from: Anne on July 17, 2008, 06:10:54 AM
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.

In her plumper years, she sang Chrysothemis in the performance I mentioned above from c. 20 years ago. And she is marvelous as a singer. 

However, it is quite a sight to see the lean Hildegard Behrens "manhandle" her in certain scenes!   0:)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Sergeant Rock

#611
Quote from: Anne on July 17, 2008, 06:10:54 AM
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.

I only own one Strauss recording with her; she's die Kaiserin in Sinopoli's Die Frau ohne Schatten. She has an impressive voice but I really prefer Cheryl Studer here; Studer projects more feeling and, to carry on the topic above, she's more feminine. I suspect I'd appreciate Voigt more in the theater.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

marvinbrown

#612
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2008, 04:13:18 AM
CDs or DVDs? Conductors, casts...a list please.


  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

  1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
  2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
  3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
  4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
  5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
  6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
  7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
  8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss  ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

  marvin

 

 

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

  1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
  2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
  3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
  4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
  5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
  6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
  7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
  8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss  ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

  marvin

 

 

Marvin, though Nilsson's Elektra is impressive, to my ears, she sounds completely wrong as Salome. My preference would be Behrens for Karajan, or the superb Welitsch (live in 1949) for Reiner. Stratas is fantastic in a film, conducted by Bohm, and recently issued on DVD by DG.

I'd also recommend Sawallisch's Capriccio, with Schwarzkopf in what many would say was her greatest role, even better than her Marschallin or Donna Elvira.

\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Anne

Quote from: Cato on July 17, 2008, 06:24:23 AM
In her plumper years, she sang Chrysothemis in the performance I mentioned above from c. 20 years ago. And she is marvelous as a singer. 

However, it is quite a sight to see the lean Hildegard Behrens "manhandle" her in certain scenes!   0:)

I don't think I have ever seen that but would like to.   ;D

Anne

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2008, 06:36:43 AM
I only own one Strauss recording with her; she's die Kaiserin in Sinopoli's Die Frau ohne Schatten. She has an impressive voice but I really prefer Cheryl Studer here; Studer projects more feeling and, to carry on the topic above, she's more feminine. I suspect I'd appreciate Voigt more in the theater.

Sarge

I like Studer also.  This is a little OT but have you heard Studer in Verdi's Atilla?  There is a scene where everyone is singing (chorus).  Atilla has just had a dream and sings about it as from the rear of the stage comes "the pope" and the chorus.  All of a sudden from way up high comes Studer's beautiful soprano voice that just floats above all of the singers.  It is the most beautiful thing.  It is on a dvd from La Scala.

Back on topic.  I only have an aria disc of D. Voigt.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Anne on July 17, 2008, 10:09:09 AM
I like Studer also.  This is a little OT but have you heard Studer in Verdi's Atilla?  There is a scene where everyone is singing (chorus).  Atilla has just had a dream and sings about it as from the rear of the stage comes "the pope" and the chorus.  All of a sudden from way up high comes Studer's beautiful soprano voice that just floats above all of the singers.  It is the most beautiful thing.  It is on a dvd from La Scala.

I haven't seen that DVD but it sounds marvelous. I have a thing for beautiful soprano voices floating high above the madding crowd  8)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

#617
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
8) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti?

Not if you like him, no, not too much although I agree with Tsaraslondon about Nilsson's Salome. I recently bought Solti's Rosenkavalier and really like it.

I highlighted the ones I own. I have Levine's Ariadne on CD (Battle's in this one too), and Kleiber's Vienna Rosenkavalier rather than the Munich. I've been thinking about that Solti Schatten DVD. Do you like it?


Quote
I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Wendell_E

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 07:30:13 AM
foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.

Sarge

Yeah, I started hearing about that problem a few years back, but haven't heard a good solution.  I thought I'd disposed of all the ones in my collection, but missed a couple:  Abbado's first recording of Mahler's Seventh was salvageable, but the second disc of the Chailly/Pavarotti/Caballé Andrea Chénier was hopeless. 

I love that Solti DVD of Die Frau ohne Schatten you were asking about.  Some people really don't care for Marton's Dyer's Wife, but I like it.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

PSmith08

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

  1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
  2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
  3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
  4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
  5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
  6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
  7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
  8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss  ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

  marvin

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: Karl Böhm's 1977 Die Frau ohne Schatten (DGG) is the one to have. Never mind the cuts he makes, just remember that the cast is about as ideal as you'd ever want and Böhm's way with Strauss was really quite singular. If Böhm's set doesn't do it for you, consider the 1964 Karajan Die Frau from Vienna, DG put it back out after a little while as a hard-to-find set. Speaking of Karajan, his 1978 Salome, which was a product of his contemporary Salzburger Festspiele run, is hard to beat. Solti's is a little too gimmicky as far as the production goes, and, as has been noted, Nilsson, despite having the range and power, isn't too terribly well suited to the role. Presenting the eponymous princess as a steely, strong-willed woman (like Brünnhilde) works, to a point, but it does tend to undermine the overall character a little bit.

Knappertsbusch's 1955 Rosenkavalier (on RCA Red Seal), which was recorded during the Staatsoper reopening festivities, is also worth a listen.