Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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Wendell_E

Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on October 21, 2008, 02:24:35 PM
I am watching Wagner right now! It's a 1966 production of Lohengrin with Gösta Winbergh and Karita Mattila. Somehow I have my doubt about the date listed because it would make Mattila now in her sixties.

I guess that was the Paris production, with Gwyneth Jones?  If so, 1996 is the correct date.  Mattila would have been six years old in 1966 and Winbergh would have been twenty-two.  That'd be creepy.   :o
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

Harry

Quote from: AndyD. on October 22, 2008, 03:15:08 AM

Wagner, and Metal.

But I guess there isn't too terribly much of a difference between the above variables, really.

Agreed! ;D


Brünnhilde forever

Quote from: Wendell_E on October 22, 2008, 03:22:56 AM
I guess that was the Paris production, with Gwyneth Jones?  If so, 1996 is the correct date.  Mattila would have been six years old in 1966 and Winbergh would have been twenty-two.  That'd be creepy.   :o

Thank you, Wendell! I contacted my giving friend and he admitted to doing an odd thing on the disc with the sixes, '1996'.

Have you seen this production? Don't bother to look for it, it's awful! Unless of course you are a Carson fan.  ::)

Jones is at her best turkey imitation, which is a shame because I admired her Brünnhilde with John Tomlinson's Wotan.

Lilas Pastia

Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?

I find some of its iconoclastic pronouncements quite illuminating. Such as Wagner is a disease, which is one of the less provocative ones. Nietzsche had gone full circle from convert to ardent foe. Of course he knew Wagner the man, so this may have something to do with it.

Bracing myself to a Frida Leider Götterdämmerung repast. 0:)

Brünnhilde forever

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2008, 06:59:21 PM
Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?


Yes, André, I did. I wish I would have been able to get the book in it's original language, but I accept Walter Kaufmann's translation. Somehow I can't forget my immediate reaction to reading it: 'Friedrich, you are sore because Richard walked out of the room laughing when you played for him your own piano composition!'

There is another book with the same subjects: Nietzche & Wagner, subtitled A Lesson in Subjugation by Joachim Köhler. It's been some time since I read it, but it must be good, otherwise I would not have kept it.

Haffner

#766
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2008, 06:59:21 PM
Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?

I find some of its iconoclastic pronouncements quite illuminating. Such as Wagner is a disease, which is one of the less provocative ones. Nietzsche had gone full circle from convert to ardent foe. Of course he knew Wagner the man, so this may have something to do with it.

Bracing myself to a Frida Leider Götterdämmerung repast. 0:)


I've read all of Nietzsche's Wagner writings. I put them squarely in the category of sour grapes: Nietzsche wanted to be a composer/artiste. Wagner told him the truth about his composing skills, and he held it against him. There's also the "Son wanting to completely distance himself from the Father" archetype between the two men. In fact, the Wagner/Nietzsche relationship is a textbook example of this.


I must be completely fair here and point out that Nietzsche was often a very brilliant writer for a philosopher, whereas Wagner was a poor writer and lame philosopher. Wagner's genius, as you all know, involved the way he made character and situational motifs into psychological profiles in his operas. Without the music, his writings falter for the most part.


PSmith08

Quote from: AndyD. on October 23, 2008, 09:59:38 AM
I've read all of Nietzsche's Wagner writings. I put them squarely in the category of sour grapes: Nietzsche wanted to be a composer/artiste. Wagner told him the truth about his composing skills, and he held it against him. There's also the "Son wanting to completely distance himself from the Father" archetype between the two men. In fact, the Wagner/Nietzsche relationship is a textbook example of this.

I don't know that there's any need to resort to archetypes in analyzing what happened between Wagner and Nietzsche. We're not talking about Götterdämmerung here, but, rather, a conflict between a great artist and a great intellect. The relationship began to sour around 1874 and Nietzsche reported that he had said farewell to Wagner in his heart (paraphrasing, but not by much) during the first Festspiele in 1876. This is, of course, complicated by the completion and publication of Richard Wagner in Bayreuth at roughly the same time, which work -- collected in Unzeitgemässe Betrachtungen -- makes the "squarely in the category of sour grapes" judgment somewhat complicated if not untenable.

Indeed, when one looks at the comments on Wagner in Die Geburt der Tragödie, one sees that Nietzsche, at least in 1872, saw Wagner as some sort of heir to the Greek tragedians about whom he wrote. That doesn't sound like "sour grapes" to me. Reading all of Nietzsche's works on Wagner, it is easy to see that Nietzsche never abandoned the Geburt way of approaching art in his praise and, then, criticism of Wagner -- Wagner in Bayreuth is full of language that echoes Geburt. The critique of Wagner in Der Fall Wagner and Nietzsche Contra Wagner, furthermore, glances at some of the ideas in Geburt, though some of Nietzsche's later philosophy makes a greater contribution in the later works. I think that the personal friction between Wagner and Nietzsche, which had something to do with Nietzsche's fondness for Brahms, too, is one element in approaching the Wagner works, but leaving out the sweep of his thought on the matter and his other theories would be an error.

It is tempting to cast Nietzsche as the hurt admirer turning his formidable intellect against Wagner, but there's more to it than that. Nietzsche's critique maintains a sort of internal consistency, both within the Wagner works and within his works more broadly. I don't think that Nietzsche-as-hurt-admirer or Nietzsche-as-rebellious-child can quite explain a thematic and intellectual consistency, which makes the arguments interesting if not cogent. The psychologist need not speak up when the philosopher can handle the problem. The fact of the matter is that the situation was complicated and some of Wagner's positions and works naturally cut against some of Nietzsche's theories on the art and life. This is, of course, not all that important, since Wagner and Nietzsche can both be appreciated -- for different reasons -- without recreating the conflict (which was pretty one-sided).

samuel



I would just like to take the time to draw attention to this very special recording of Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg, my favorite opera. This was the first studio recording of Die Meistersinger, recorded in 1950 and 1951 with Hans Knappertsbusch conducting the Vienna Philharmonic and an excellent cast of singers. Above all, Paul Schoeffler's portrayal of Hans Sachs has so much warmth and humanity that I am convinced it is one of the most moving Wagner performances on record. Hilde Gueden, who has always impressed me in her lyric soprano roles (Susanna, Zerlina, Sophie, etc.), brings such youthful radiance to her portrayal of Eva that I cannot imagine a more heartfelt voice in that role. And Anton Dermota, one of the great lyric tenors in Mozart and Strauss, is a note-perfect David. The rest of the cast includes Guenther Treptow as Walther, Otto Edelmann as Pogner, and Karl Doench as Beckmesser. Knappertsbusch, who is known for controversial tempos, is surprisingly fleet and graceful here. The opening prelude has never sounded so lively and noble, while the prelude to Act III is serene and poignant. The excellent combination of conducting and singing on this set make it, along with Erich Kleiber's Figaro and Rosenkavalier, one of the three opera recordings I would take to the desert island.

Note: The Decca Historical Series version of this set as pictured above is OOP ($49.99 on ArkivMusic); however I believe Naxos has released it as part of their series of historical opera recordings. I urge you to give it a listen if you haven't already done so!

Sam =) 

knight66

#769
On impulse I bought the Chandos single CD issue of 'Wagner's Ring, An Orchestral Adventure'. I had read that instead of bleeding chunks, we get a symphony in four movements. True up to a point. It is satisfying and frustrating in equal measures. Lots of passages any Wagnerian would able to whistle complete are foreshortened in favour of some being touched upon. Of course, there are problems condensing 15 hours to one, lots has to go, including lots one might like to have heard. Some passages are more complete than others, for example, the final few minutes of Gotterdammerung.

Sometimes the vocal line is there, but often it is not and the arranger, Henk de Viger, seems to have stuck pretty well to Wagner's orchestrations, rather than allocate instruments to the missing vocal lines. I think the vocal line only appears where it is shadowed by an instrument in the original.

The booklet does explain the symphonic structure, Rheingold providing a first movement, Walkure a Scherzo, Siegfried a slow movement and Gotterdammerung, with recapitulations from elsewhere in the cycle, a satisfying final movement.

Possibly it might come across that way to someone who did not know the music; but I find the four movements to have all the contrasts of each opera within them and no long breathed themes with variations that symphonists usually play with. The cycle is so protean that really we get an extended suite packed with great music.

Where this version scores over the bleeding chunks approach, or Maazel's Ring Without Words, is that the tailoring of one part of the music to join another has no unpleasant bumps, the bridges are pretty much all Wagner's. There are some modulations to get from one place to another that Wagner did not use, but the music is his rather than invented Wagner-like passages.

I could not detect any ideological bringing together of motifs in a new way. I am surprised no one has tried this. We get an episodic progression through the Ring.

The CD cover has it right, forget the 'Symphony' concept; treat it more akin to one of Liszt's Opera Paraphrases. On that level it is very enjoyable.

The Royal Scottish National Orchestra is on good form, lots of superb horn opportunities. Neeme Jarvi guides them through, but I think some of the real drama could be brought out more, especially around Siegfried's Funeral music, which can be jaw dropping.

Not a disc for purists, very much a good introduction for people who don't like either vocal music or hardcore Wagner. I know I will listen to it on my iPod quite often; as I enjoyed spotting the transitions and it does have such great music, even though so much is inevitably missing.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Haffner

Now that sounds really cool, Mike. I can't believe I hadn't heard of it.

karlhenning

Very interesting, Mike (and Andy).

(And, no, I haven't cracked open most of the Ring in the Big Bayreuth Box.)

Haffner

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2008, 04:01:51 PM
Very interesting, Mike (and Andy).

(And, no, I haven't cracked open most of the Ring in the Big Bayreuth Box.)


Hey, there is a Big Bayreuth Box!?

karlhenning


marvinbrown

Quote from: AndyD. on December 22, 2008, 04:03:48 PM

Hey, there is a Big Bayreuth Box!?

  Andy   8) it's got one of the best Tristan und Isoldes on record! The 1966 recording at Bayreuth with Nilsson and Windgassen  0:).  It is also very affordable, I recently saw it at HMV for £35 (about $50). 

  marvin

PSmith08

#775
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 22, 2008, 04:37:37 PM
  Andy   8) it's got one of the best Tristan und Isoldes on record! The 1966 recording at Bayreuth with Nilsson and Windgassen  0:).  It is also very affordable, I recently saw it at HMV for £35 (about $50). 

  marvin

Let's not forget, however, that James Levine's 1985 Parsifal is not entirely successful. Where a conductor like Leonard Bernstein could slow a Wagner score, namely Tristan, down a bit to plumb the emotional depths of Wagner's work, Levine (c. 1985) merely produced a self-consciously grand reading, which was, I should note, a far cry from the best recordings of Knappertsbusch, when he put on the brakes. Of course, the set makes up for this weak patch with Silvio Varviso's deeply interesting 1974 Meistersinger. Probably not the best-cast, which crown goes to Reiner's 1955 Vienna Staatsoper set or Böhm's 1968 Bayreuth set, but as far as the orchestra goes, Varviso's set is a winner. The Böhm Tristan is, or should be, a known quantity. It's a fine starter, but one will want either Kleiber or Bernstein (and probably either Furtwängler or Runnicles, too) after a while.

The Wagner Cube is a great set and a great bargain, largely because many of its included components were last available in the now-OOP Philips Richard Wagner Edition (which substituted, as I recall, most notably Boulez for Böhm in the Ring, Nelsson for Sawallisch in Holländer, and Schneider for Sawallisch in Lohengrin -- which recordings are, by and large, available elsewhere. Except, maybe, Schneider's Lohengrin on CD).

Haffner

Heyyy....sounds like magnificent T und I! Pretty inexpensive as well....

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2008, 04:06:02 PM
Behold!



Available for peanuts and, as such things go, with no notes or librettos. Instead we have a cursory but detailed enough  scene by scene, track by track plot description. For less than 60$, I don't think one could possibly quibble about the contents. From what I gather, the aim was to present stereo productions form Bayreuth that were once available on one of the Polygram conglomerate labels (Decca, DGG, Philips). What we get is an assemblage of performances that center round two strong, no-nonsense men of the pit, Sawallisch (Lohengrin, Tannhaüser, Fliegende Holländer) and Böhm (Ring, Tristan). The series is completed with Varviso's Meistersinger and Levine's Parsifal.

PSmith08

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 26, 2008, 07:00:53 PM
Available for peanuts and, as such things go, with no notes or librettos. Instead we have a cursory but detailed enough  scene by scene, track by track plot description. For less than 60$, I don't think one could possibly quibble about the contents. From what I gather, the aim was to present stereo productions form Bayreuth that were once available on one of the Polygram conglomerate labels (Decca, DGG, Philips). What we get is an assemblage of performances that center round two strong, no-nonsense men of the pit, Sawallisch (Lohengrin, Tannhaüser, Fliegende Holländer) and Böhm (Ring, Tristan). The series is completed with Varviso's Meistersinger and Levine's Parsifal.

The only bargain reissue, to my knowledge, that has gotten the libretto situation even remotely correct was, oddly enough, Warner's issue of Barenboim's Bayreuth Ring. In that case, they merely reissued the texts that came with the individual original issues. That was nice because, in addition to the reasonably good essays and synopses, the libretti were illustrated with the relevant Leitmotiven. While a separate volume or other such source is helpful for real study of the Ring, the libretti with that Teldec/Warner set were pretty solid starting points.

greg

I have a question..... i don't know how to put it- i'll just say it like this: I'm interested in learning about the influence that Tristan und Isolde has had on Mahler's use of harmony. Are there any recorded thoughts of his about this opera. Obviously, he's conducted it before, but, specifically, what did he think about it?

Also, what was Wagner thinking when he wrote it? I'm thinking about the Prelude and ending, since i'm not familiar with much else. What made him start writing with all of these suspensions? What was he thinking? (i'm dying to learn about this!)