Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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PSmith08

Quote from: G$ on January 23, 2009, 08:21:47 PM
I have a question..... i don't know how to put it- i'll just say it like this: I'm interested in learning about the influence that Tristan und Isolde has had on Mahler's use of harmony. Are there any recorded thoughts of his about this opera. Obviously, he's conducted it before, but, specifically, what did he think about it?

Also, what was Wagner thinking when he wrote it? I'm thinking about the Prelude and ending, since i'm not familiar with much else. What made him start writing with all of these suspensions? What was he thinking? (i'm dying to learn about this!)

To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.

As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.

Haffner

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 24, 2009, 10:32:59 AM
To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.

As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.


First off, Congratulations on your excellent site!

I wonder if Wagner might have written something as radical as Tristan und Isolde because he finally had the freedom to write it. Although Lohengrin and the first 2/3 (roughly) of the Ring certainly had some harmonic daredeviltries, T und I is just a blockbuster of innovation easily comparable to the Grosse Fuge (my opinion). Sonata form was mostly thrown out the window, though one could argue for its presence as an antagonistic element.

Anyhoo, sorry for the self-conscious rant (only thing I'm good for here, besides pictures of my girl), but yeah I am guessing at least part of the reason T und I came into being was because Wagner had the relative freedom to do it.

greg

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 24, 2009, 10:32:59 AM
To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.

As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.
Thanks for the references.  :) I'll get to that...
but for now, no quick summary, like a sentence? It'd be nice, though I'd understand if something like this couldn't be summarized in just a few words.

PSmith08

Quote from: G$ on January 24, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
Thanks for the references.  :) I'll get to that...
but for now, no quick summary, like a sentence? It'd be nice, though I'd understand if something like this couldn't be summarized in just a few words.

To be honest, I'm not sufficiently well-versed in Wagner's own comments on the composition of Tristan to give you a summary. I get the sense that there's no easy answer to your question. The time of Tristan was a very active time in Wagner's life, not that he too many inactive moments, and I'm not sure that he wrote his motivations down in the detail you want. I could be wrong, and someone who is better versed in Wagner's prose and correspondence might be able to answer your question definitively.

Wagner undoubtedly had a reason for doing what he did, one -- I'm sure -- that would be eminently reasonable and obvious, largely because once a genius explains himself, you realize that there is no other acceptable way to do it. Whether or not he sat down and explained it is another question.

greg

Or maybe it could be just a simple choice to make use of certain ideas just by playing around with them? Either way, it'd be interesting to know.

Josquin des Prez

I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner. 

greg

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 27, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner. 
Ha, really? No connection between much of Mahler's idiom and the ending of Tristan und Isolde?

PSmith08

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 27, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner. 

I suppose that, were one to have never made it past the first part of Mahler's 8th, there might be something to that.

J.Z. Herrenberg

G$, why not read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord

There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Haffner

Quote from: Jezetha on February 06, 2009, 03:09:42 AM
G$, why not read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord

There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.


Great post! Bryan Magee's book The Tristan Chord goes on at fascinating length in regard to the relationship between T and I and Schoepenhauer.

Brünnhilde forever

Stepping away from T&I for a few seconds:

And there is Michael Kristensen as an indescribable greatest acting Loge in the much talked about Copenhagen Ring which the mailman brought me less than two hours ago. First act just finished but I had to take time out to catch my breath, and to assure you, this Ring is not as bad as has been written and talked about, at least not as the first act of Rheingold is concerned. Of course there is a lot more ahead of me - and you! - but I am still overwhelmed by the perfect singing, and also this truly great acting of Kristensen.

The music played by the Royal Danish Opera under Michel Schønwandt is nothing to sneeze at either! On my way down to Nibelheim, see you later!

Lis

greg

Quote from: Jezetha on February 06, 2009, 03:09:42 AM
G$, why not read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord

There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.
I've read that article. Makes sense to me if analyzed on the second degree in A Minor, with just the D# thrown in as a chromatic.

Quote from: AndyD. on February 06, 2009, 02:06:41 PM

Great post! Bryan Magee's book The Tristan Chord goes on at fascinating length in regard to the relationship between T and I and Schoepenhauer.
Wow, a whole book about that?  :D

Brünnhilde forever

Something for all Georg Solti and Schenk/Levine worshippers to start tongue-wagging:

T-C

In Das Rheingold, Johan Reuter sings Wotan and he is Ok, but the Wotan of the remaining operas - James Johnson - is the better singer and actor. He is one of the best singers in the Copenhagen Ring.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 06, 2009, 03:36:31 PM
Stepping away from T&I for a few seconds:

And there is Michael Kristensen as an indescribable greatest acting Loge in the much talked about Copenhagen Ring which the mailman brought me less than two hours ago. First act just finished but I had to take time out to catch my breath, and to assure you, this Ring is not as bad as has been written and talked about, at least not as the first act of Rheingold is concerned. Of course there is a lot more ahead of me - and you! - but I am still overwhelmed by the perfect singing, and also this truly great acting of Kristensen.

The music played by the Royal Danish Opera under Michel Schønwandt is nothing to sneeze at either! On my way down to Nibelheim, see you later!

Lis

Give my regards to Alberich.

And thanks for the info about this performance!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Brünnhilde forever

John Reuter was Theseus in Birtwistle's Minotaur, very impressing then and I was kind of looking forward to hear and see his Wotan in Die Walküre, hear him sing "Leb' wohl"!

If you say Johnson is even better, I'll take your word for it and am looking forward to tomorrow's afternoon in my music room.

What do you think of Michael Kristensen? What a Loge! I love the way the director Kasper Bech Holten is making all the performers move; no idle standing around, if not singing, their facial expressions were getting my attention.

T-C

That's the word: What a Loge!

And the Mime in Siegfried is another example for an excellent singer-actor. His performance is really hilarious, especially when he is cooking the meal while Siegfried is forging his sword...

Haffner

Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 06, 2009, 07:59:42 PM
Something for all Georg Solti and Schenk/Levine worshippers to start tongue-wagging:


M you lost some weight! Glad ta have you back >:D!

Haffner

Quote from: T-C on February 06, 2009, 10:37:14 PM
In Das Rheingold, Johan Reuter sings Wotan and he is Ok, but the Wotan of the remaining operas - James Johnson - is the better singer and actor. He is one of the best singers in the Copenhagen Ring.



Just how good is this Copenhagen Ring?

Next to Solti? Bohm? Krauss? Karajan? Boulez?

Brünnhilde forever

#799
Schønwandt is right there in your line-up, just as is Haenchen from Amsterdam, Barenboim and Thielemann from Bayreuth.