Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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Haffner

Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 07, 2009, 06:26:38 AM
Schønwandt is right there in your line-up, just as is Haenchen from Amsterdam, Barenboim and Thielemann from Bayreuth.


This must be good.

Brünnhilde forever

 I screwed up! - joining the President and the Pope! I, the one who has been preaching open-mindedness, goofed by believing the reviews and opinions of others, critics and reviewers, and rejected this Ring des Nibelungen. It finally dawned on me to listen to my own admonishments, and be open-minded and to watch it and then make up my mind.

So far I have watched the DVD of Das Rheingold and have nothing but praise for the director's brilliant ideas, the singers superb singing and acting, and the musicians fabulous playing guided by this vibrant conductor, Michael Schønwandt. It's a film, not an opera! Multiple handheld cameras were used at every angle possible to show the lively action. Never a moment where the performers stand in the corner, doing nothing but waiting for the other person to finish his singing, no, their faces show their reaction to what was being sung.

To be continued!



Brünnhilde forever

youtube is chuckfull of garbage, but this one has to be rated as the most stupid of them all.  >:D

Mandryka

Hi everyone.

Has anyone here read A sense of Ending by Phillip Kitcher and Richard Schacht?

I have recently finished it and I like it -- especially the discussion of love in The Ring. I'm kind of curious to know how well it has been received.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen


Haffner

Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2009, 12:04:08 PM
Hi everyone.

Has anyone here read A sense of Ending by Phillip Kitcher and Richard Schacht?

I have recently finished it and I like it -- especially the discussion of love in The Ring. I'm kind of curious to know how well it has been received.


That ws a very good book. From what I've read of reviews, it's been well received. I've read better books on the subject (Ernest Newman's The Wagner Operas is the definitive, especially on the Ring, and Bryan Magee's The Tristan Chord is excellently done from a philosophical perspective).

Mandryka

Quote from: AndyD. on February 16, 2009, 05:42:15 AM

That ws a very good book. From what I've read of reviews, it's been well received. I've read better books on the subject (Ernest Newman's The Wagner Operas is the definitive, especially on the Ring, and Bryan Magee's The Tristan Chord is excellently done from a philosophical perspective).

Sory mate, I think A Sense of ending goes way deeper than Newman, and McGee for that matter.

I am particularly interested their idea that The Ring is an attempt by Wagner to demonstrate the uselessness of love when confronted ny the real world challenges of the likes of Hagen and Gunter.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Haffner

#808
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 07:27:23 AM
Sory mate, I think A Sense of ending goes way deeper than Newman, and McGee for that matter.

I am particularly interested their idea that The Ring is an attempt by Wagner to demonstrate the uselessness of love when confronted ny the real world challenges of the likes of Hagen and Gunter.


Ehhh...well, that's one opinion on what the opera Der Ring Des Nibelungen means.

Although it was a fun thought experiment, overall I don't think that your "Finding an Ending" had any idea of what it was talking about. The entirety of Gotterdammerung was written under the influence of Schoepenhauer, Wagner threw away any Feuerbach influence way before he'd started the last part of Siegfried. If you dispute that, read the letters of Wagner and also his wife Cosima during the writing of the aforementioned pieces.

Also, the fact that the writer of Finding an Ending dismisses Parsifal has to be one to be the most crippling mistake toward the author's argument (besides his obvious lack of biographical knowledge comcerning Wagner). Even from a strictly musical standpoint, Parsifal is just as strong a composition as any of the last four Wagner operas. Some people see it even as the crown jewel of Wagner's output.

I highly reccomend you read Wagner's Brown Book, as well as Cosima's diaries from around the time of the composition of the Ring, before you parade around "Finding an Ending".

And please, read the Magee and Newman before you place a book above them. Or at least set alongside the main arguments from each author's books so we can have a more informed discussion.

Please forgive if I sound a little too knowledgeable. I don't mean to be condescending. But as of this month I've been studying Wagner's works, in particular the Ring and Parsifal, for the better part of two years now. This includes the scores (at length), as well as biographical information on the works and composer.

I know what I'm talking about. I believe that you're capable of the same. don't be indignant.

Learn.

Mandryka

#809
Quote from: AndyD. on February 16, 2009, 09:55:02 AM

Ehhh...well, that's one opinion on what the opera Der Ring Des Nibelungen means.

Although it was a fun thought experiment, overall I don't think that your "Finding an Ending" had any idea of what it was talking about. The entirety of Gotterdammerung was written under the influence of Schoepenhauer, Wagner threw away any Feuerbach influence way before he'd started the last part of Siegfried. If you dispute that, read the letters of Wagner and also his wife Cosima during the writing of the aforementioned pieces.

Also, the fact that the writer of Finding an Ending dismisses Parsifal has to be one to be the most crippling mistake toward the author's argument (besides his obvious lack of biographical knowledge comcerning Wagner). Even from a strictly musical standpoint, Parsifal is just as strong a composition as any of the last four Wagner operas. Some people see it even as the crown jewel of Wagner's output.

I highly reccomend you read Wagner's Brown Book, as well as Cosima's diaries from around the time of the composition of the Ring, before you parade around "Finding an Ending".

And please, read the Magee and Newman before you place a book above them. Or at least set alongside the main arguments from each author's books so we can have a more informed discussion.

Please forgive if I sound a little too knowledgeable. I don't mean to be condescending. But as of this month I've been studying Wagner's works, in particular the Ring and Parsifal, for the better part of two years now. This includes the scores (at length), as well as biographical information on the works and composer.

I know what I'm talking about. I believe that you're capable of the same. don't be indignant.

Learn.

Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Haffner

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 11:20:38 AM
Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?


That's a loaded question. There are countless interpretations, all are fascinating. That's what makes great Art, trying on all the possible answers. Just like Shakespeare's sonnets.

Paucis verbis, there is no one answer. Art never has just one, otherwise it would be all surface.

You do know that, I trust.


ChamberNut

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 11:20:38 AM
Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?

Because it was Wotan's (ie. God's will)?  :-\  Just a thought?  It was to fulfill the destiny?

ChamberNut

I am now curious as to why the character "Mime" is seen as an "anti-semitic caricature"?  M. Owen Lee makes this comment about Mime, in Siegfried, being a "low point" and an embarrassment.  Why is Mime deemed to be looked at as a anti-semitic symbol?

Haffner

Quote from: KammerNuss on February 16, 2009, 11:54:46 AM
I am now curious as to why the character "Mime" is seen as an "anti-semitic caricature"?  M. Owen Lee makes this comment about Mime, in Siegfried, being a "low point" and an embarrassment.  Why is Mime deemed to be looked at as a anti-semitic symbol?


Lee tended to demonize Wagner (not that Wagner needed any help in that department, he was very much an officious anti-semite). I think pretty much any open minded person today can watch the portrayal of Mime and see that it's simply a portrayal of a miserable, misanthropic person. And there are plenty of those in all "races" aren't there.

Lee even wrote a book (correct me if I'm wrong please) with the title (paraphrased "Wagner: the Terrible Man"). That last pretty much says it all.

I feel about Wagner the way the great conductor Toscaninni felt about R. Strauss: to the composer Wagner, I tip my hat. To the man Wagner, I put it back on.

Mandryka

Quote from: KammerNuss on February 16, 2009, 11:52:07 AM
Because it was Wotan's (ie. God's will)?  :-\  Just a thought?  It was to fulfill the destiny?

But why should Wotan want Brunhilde to die?

I can see why he might think the world would be better if he were gone -- the events of The Ring have shown that he is a pretty useless god. But what's to be gained by getting rid of his daughter?

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

ChamberNut

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 01:12:44 PM
But why should Wotan want Brunhilde to die?

I can see why he might think the world would be better if he were gone -- the events of The Ring have shown that he is a pretty useless god. But what's to be gained by getting rid of his daughter?



Since Brunnhilde betrayed Wotan (in the beginning, by trying to protect Siegmund and Sieglinde), he had to turn her into a mortal to appease the Gods for her going against his wishes.  I think this is correct?

Brünnhilde forever

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 11:20:38 AM
Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?

Does she?


Mandryka

Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 16, 2009, 07:41:07 PM
Does she?



Are you serious? Do you think there's a reading where she survives this?

She has jumped on to the horse and with one bound leaps into the burning pyre. The flames immediately crackle and flare up high, so that the fire fills the whole space in front of the hall and seems to seize on this too. Terrified, the men and women press to the extreme foreground
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#818
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 16, 2009, 04:35:19 PM
Since Brunnhilde betrayed Wotan (in the beginning, by trying to protect Siegmund and Sieglinde), he had to turn her into a mortal to appease the Gods for her going against his wishes.  I think this is correct?

I'm not sure about appeasing the gods.

All he says to erda when he explains the situation is:

She flouted the father of the storms,
when in his might he had mastered himself.
What the controller of combats
longed to do
but restrained himself
against his will,
all too confidently
the defiant girl -
Brünnhilde in the brunt of battle -
dared to accomplish for herself.
The father of conflicts
punished the maid:
in her eyes he pressed sleep:
on the fell she is fast asleep.
The consecrated one
will waken
only when a man woos her for his wife.


And when he explains himself to his daughter in Walkure he makes it clear that the punishment is his decision -- because she has renounced him by her defiance:

You have renounced me.
I must keep away from you,
and in company with you
I can never again meditate plans.
We are separated
and cannot work together any more.
While life breath last
the god must never meet you again.


and later

Girl, do not try
to alter my decision.
Await your lot
as it falls to you;
I cannot choose it for you;
And now I must go,
travel far away.
I have stayed here too long.
As you turned away
I must turn from you.
I may not know
what you wish for yourself:
only your punishment
I must see exacted.


Nothing about appeasment in any of this.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Brünnhilde forever

Los Angeles New Ring

Take the time and read about it in ACD's blog entry, including hot off the press reviews:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2009/02/its-going-to-be-a-bumpy-night.html