Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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Scarpia

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 17, 2009, 02:22:30 PM
 Scarpia the orchestras and conductors may well be there! but this criticism has come from the CASTING DIRECTOR at the MET  :o, I submit to you that there may be a lot of orchestras that can play the score of  Tristan und Isolde but the difficulty lies in the vocals as well. I am not sure that many tenors can make the grade! Tristan carries the majority of Act 3, his monologue is long, the agony palpable....and only 11 men in the world today are up to that challenge.....I truly believe that the "sky is falling" ;)! Perhaps Wagner set the bar far too high here??

Maybe there are 11 that can be engaged at the Met, a big hall, a big orchestra and arguably the best opera house in the world with the pickiest audience.  That doesn't mean there aren't others who can sing the role if expectations are out of the stratosphere.  I am still somewhat skeptical that in the "good old days" there were many more who could do the job. 

Haffner

When I finally broke myself of my stupid, "everything has to resolve neatly" mindset toward music, and learned how to understand Wagner's language, my life itself was overall improved. Time and again. Wagner's music is truly the Art that keeps on giving. There's always something to be had, discovered, internalised from his music.

I firmly believe (through personal experience) that the archetypes that lie behind the characters and situations in the great Wagner operas help us to learn about ourselves, as well as the world around us.

For me, only Beethoven's late string quartets (and probably that standby, the trusty 9th), have continually, consistently paid off as much as Wagner's operas. They are examples of art that actually made my life one heck of a lot better. They can be like love itself.

Wagner, to paraphrase Nietzsche, is one of the great great benefactors of my life.

Lilas Pastia

#882
Quote from: Scarpia on June 17, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Maybe there are 11 that can be engaged at the Met, a big hall, a big orchestra and arguably the best opera house in the world with the pickiest audience.  That doesn't mean there aren't others who can sing the role if expectations are out of the stratosphere.  I am still somewhat skeptical that in the "good old days" there were many more who could do the job.  

I'm actually quite certain that 'the good old days' didn't boast more Tristans than now. If that had been the case, we'd have them on record. Especially since the Bayreuth Festival was such a powerful magnet after the War (it reopened in 1951). In an interview with three Isoldes (and Brünnhildes) on the Bavarian Radio and TV in the early 2000s, Martha Mödl, Astrid Varnay and Birgit Nilsson, all three mentioned how selective the Bayreuth management was in hiring singers. "Only the best were allowed to sing" - "now it's a workshop of course" (that's Mödl and Nilsson speaking IIRC). And yet, how many Tristans have the Bayreuth productions fielded since 1951? Vinay (1952-53), Windgassen (1957-1970, Helge Brilioth, René Kollo and Jerusalem in the seventies-eighties. All three estimable singers that could have sung Siegmund but had no business attempting to fill in Tristan's shoes. And a few nobodies that I'ver never come across before. I mean who was Spas Wenkoff?  ??? Well, he was deemed good enough to sing 5 Tristans between 1976 and 1985. Nilsson was right. Much of the casting at Bayreuth has been that of a workshop since the Windgassen days. If there are still 11 Tristans around today, that's not bad at all !

eyeresist

Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 02:52:09 PM

That's not Wagner, that's Gershwin: Can't help loving that moose of mine.

Statistically, I don't understand why there should be fewer capable Wagner singers now. Surely there are more singing students in conservatories than ever before. So, unless the human race has undergone some sort of genetic decline, how could we have more singers but fewer heldentenors?

Maybe singers need to start smoking and drinking again? ;)

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: eyeresist on June 17, 2009, 07:25:57 PM
Maybe singers need to start smoking and drinking again? ;)

Well, you may be onto something there. I once read a passage from either Varnay or Mödl (forget which) in a book on singing and the one criticism she (one of the she's) had with female singers today is they didn't have enough meat on their bones to belt out the chest music. I guess thinness and power don't go together so perhaps (just perhaps) it's the age we live in after all that's contributing to the "decline".
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Brünnhilde ewig

Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
 The thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.


That has been my line for years! Those dear people are in abundance on all opera fora; they won't believe you nor me. An example is this awesome Tristan und Isolde at the Scala, Milano, Barenboim conducting and working spendidly with the director Patrice Chéreau. In my collection it is at the top of the list of T&I because the connection between Ian Storey, Tristan, and Waltraud Meier, Isolde. Those two are not only great singers, they are interacting with each other. Watching those old productions, all I see are singers doing their thing: Singing; they barely look at each other. To hell with acting. And Storey does not weaken in the third act, he is as strong as in the beginning.

But of course people have to see this DVD to believe me - and you! - that there are contemporary tenors as good, if not better than the past idols.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on June 17, 2009, 08:51:53 PM
That has been my line for years!

Despite my quip above about 'thin singers' I'm absolutely on board with this quote. I've lost count of the 'golden age' and 'silver age' recording's I've had over the years but nothing to my ears outright K-O's anything from today. Yes, the singing might be "different", and might be more to someone's liking than something contemporary, but it's certainly not the last word in quality.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

knight66

As Scarpia says, there is a difference between the demands of the Met and who can actually sing the part for other houses. 11 does not sound all that bad. I wonder how many productions there are in any year? Though I guess if there were 100 such tenors, there would be more productions. My guess is that there may be more houses worldwide now with the capability to mount T&I, as against 60 years ago.

However, I have read several times over the years that we have fewer tenors than we used to. Seemingly it is the fault of pollution. This has lowered men's voices. (Why not women's?) Certainly, there is any number of superb baritones around.

One article I read instanced countries that once produced world class tenors, but now don't; Nordic countries were specified, where there used to be next to no pollution, but now supposedly, enough to eradicate tenors. I have no idea whether there is really anything in the idea. But we all know there used to be a deal of Italian tenors around, to the extent they were caricatured. How many can we name today or over the last 20 years, apart from Pavarotti?

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

PSmith08

In my view, we really haven't had a perfect Wagnerian Heldentenor since Melchior. We have, however, had some excellent tenors making a gallant effort to fill the void. I refer, specifically, to James King, Jon Vickers, and Jess Thomas. We have had other great tenors, too, like Windgassen, Ramón Vinay, and Sándor Kónya. More modern singers like Siegfried Jerusalem and Ben Heppner haven't been terrible, but I'd hesitate before including them in the first rank. At the same time, however, I think we really should consider what this means. How many perfect exponents have there been of Figaro, Radames, Calaf, or Rigoletto? When you think about it, it isn't all that extraordinary to say that Melchior was the last (only?) perfect Heldentenor.

Valentino

On which recordings can Melchior be heard?
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

knight66

DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Valentino

Thanks. I have a lot of listening to do.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

knight66

Looking through that list cost me some money thank you! A little bit anyway. I ordered the Naxos duets disc with Flagstad. I have his Tristan live and a disc of arias, but I succumbed to yet more.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Drasko

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 16, 2009, 01:31:22 PM

This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role.  My God only 11....

And that is not enough? Don't think I can count 11 Otellos in recorded history.

knight66

Vickers, Domingo, Pavarotti, Del Monaco, Vinay, Cossutta, Craig, Martinelli, Dermota, McCracken....now I am stuck. Cura sings it and so did Melchior. But it is not all that easy to come up with a dozen even within the last 30 years.

Mike

DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

PSmith08

Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 11:22:05 PM
On which recordings can Melchior be heard?

I am generally of the opinion that the best places to hear Melchior are on the justly famous 1935 Walküre act 1 from Vienna, led by Bruno Walter, and the potted HMV Siegfried, led by various conductors. Both were (are?) available on Naxos' "Great Opera Recordings" in fine transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn and Ward Marston, respectively. I'll put it like this: while you'll want to hear more, you'll more than get your range on Melchior with those sets.

Haffner

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 18, 2009, 05:20:48 AM
I am generally of the opinion that the best places to hear Melchior are on the justly famous 1935 Walküre act 1 from Vienna, led by Bruno Walter, and the potted HMV Siegfried, led by various conductors. Both were (are?) available on Naxos' "Great Opera Recordings" in fine transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn and Ward Marston, respectively. I'll put it like this: while you'll want to hear more, you'll more than get your range on Melchior with those sets.

After reading your excellent blog, I have to check out Melchior.

Off topic, but pretty cool reading about Nefertiti as well, and I'm so happy you mentioned Keith Jarrett. I hadn't thought of him in years. Great stuff!

Drasko

Quote from: knight on June 18, 2009, 04:09:30 AM
Vickers, Domingo, Pavarotti, Del Monaco, Vinay, Cossutta, Craig, Martinelli, Dermota, McCracken....now I am stuck. Cura sings it and so did Melchior. But it is not all that easy to come up with a dozen even within the last 30 years.

You got further than me, I had to google who is Craig, and are you sure Dermota sung Otello? I'm only aware of Cassio under Furtwangler. I'm not sure he had the voice for Otello (he did sing very beautiful, if generously miked, Das Lied von der Erde under Klemperer though). Drop Martinelli and the rest is I think complete post WWII Otelldom. Maybe Kaufmann would make nice Otello in some years.


marvinbrown



  Alright alright all of you have made your point and proved me "somewhat" wrong....that said I can't remember the last time Tristan und Isolde played in London  :-\ :-\......

    marvin

knight66

Quote from: Drasko on June 18, 2009, 06:40:12 AM
You got further than me, I had to google who is Craig, and are you sure Dermota sung Otello? I'm only aware of Cassio under Furtwangler. I'm not sure he had the voice for Otello (he did sing very beautiful, if generously miked, Das Lied von der Erde under Klemperer though). Drop Martinelli and the rest is I think complete post WWII Otelldom. Maybe Kaufmann would make nice Otello in some years.



You may well be right there Drasko. I thought I had read of him doing it in German, but I may well be wrong, as I more associate him with Mozart, which is at the opposite end of the spectrum.

As to Melchior...yes, that Act1 Walkure might in fact be the most vital of his discs if you only bought one. I had forgotten about it.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.