Wagner's Valhalla

[jlaurson]

I am completely fascinated by Wagner's music and art in general. But his politics I find to be completely idiotic. This includes his boneheaded nationalistic views, his laughable letters to Ludwig outlining his ideas for a "new Germany"... I could go on and on (HE sure as heck did...yawn), but most of you are quite familiar with the most retarded of his views.

Well... it's impossible not to misunderstand Wagner when you don't understand the time he lived in. There was no Germany... and to be nationalistic was something radically different then than it is now. Certainly his views on many things were not boneheaded but a product of his time... and in any case often radical in ways we might appreciate. Certainly being kicked out of Saxony (there was no Germany at the time, and wouldn't until just 12 years before Wagner died) for alleged symphatzising (if not organizing) with republican ideals is something that can strongly appeal to anyone who values the freedom of the individual over absolutist regimes.

The very architecture of Bayreuth is designed with these republican ideals in mind, and they certainly were a liberal breath of fresh air at the time.

The fact is that most of us are NOT familiar with his views, and those who are somewhat, not familiar with all his views. We are judging on hearsay evidence or bits and pieces here and there. This is not trying to extradite Wagner in general (he still offers plenty to be exacerbated about, private or public), but we should a bit more about what he actually thought and what circumstances he was operating under, before we go about poo-pooing all that Wagner was about (even if we explicitly excempt the music).

[Haffner]

Well... it's impossible not to misunderstand Wagner when you don't understand the time he lived in. There was no Germany... and to be nationalistic was something radically different then than it is now. Certainly his views on many things were not boneheaded but a product of his time... and in any case often radical in ways we might appreciate. Certainly being kicked out of Saxony (there was no Germany at the time, and wouldn't until just 12 years before Wagner died) for alleged symphatzising (if not organizing) with republican ideals is something that can strongly appeal to anyone who values the freedom of the individual over absolutist regimes.

The very architecture of Bayreuth is designed with these republican ideals in mind, and they certainly were a liberal breath of fresh air at the time.

The fact is that most of us are NOT familiar with his views, and those who are somewhat, not familiar with all his views. We are judging on hearsay evidence or bits and pieces here and there. This is not trying to extradite Wagner in general (he still offers plenty to be exacerbated about, private or public), but we should a bit more about what he actually thought and what circumstances he was operating under, before we go about poo-pooing all that Wagner was about (even if we explicitly excempt the music).

I mean no offense or disprespect, but I've studied Wagner's life, writings, and music extensively (I still AM studying them!). It's quite true that his nationalism was a product of both his time and youth (for the most part), but it doesn't really take away from the fact that it was a BONEheaded view to begin with. That he should have had enough brains to have seen just how unfunnily ridiculous such views were. He was a total trend-shattering trailblazer when it came to Art, why couldn't he have similarly refused to jump on the nationalistic bandwagon? When I wrote that alot of his writings and views were boneheaded, I wrote that keeping in mind all the studies I've done on him and his circumstances. His and Cosima's diaries alone portray Wagner as a generally brutal, unkind, in-love-with-himself-and-his-often-erroneous-opinions sorta guy.

[jlaurson]

I mean no offense or disprespect, but I've studied Wagner's life, writings, and music extensively (I still AM studying them!). It's quite true that his nationalism was a product of both his time and youth (for the most part), but it doesn't really take away from the fact that it was a BONEheaded view to begin with. That he should have had enough brains to have seen just how unfunnily ridiculous such views were. He was a total trend-shattering trailblazer when it came to Art, why couldn't he have similarly refused to jump on the nationalistic bandwagon? When I wrote that alot of his writings and views were boneheaded, I wrote that keeping in mind all the studies I've done on him and his circumstances. His and Cosima's diaries alone portray Wagner as a generally brutal, unkind, in-love-with-himself-and-his-often-erroneous-opinions sorta guy.

I'm sorry, but I'm sure you can understand that I underestimate your nuance in talking about Wagner and 19th Ct. Germany when you use terms like "boneheaded".  

And meaning neither offense nor disrespect, either, I'm not sure if you are comfortably appreciating the concept of 19th ct. nationalism. Wagner isn't...
(And "brutal"? Where do you get that from? Ruthless, perhaps.) His is not the same nationalism of, say, Werner Sombart or Carl Schmitt. Being all too casual in dismissing the (in this case political, not racial or musical) views of influential past figures like Wagner just doesn't sit too well with me. One could go that very route and dismiss Aristotle and his boneheaded ideas of not including women (as actors or voters) in the polis of his day. Should he have had enough brains to see how ridiculous such views were?  

Cheers, mate...

[Haffner]

I'm sorry, but I'm sure you can understand that I underestimate your nuance in talking about Wagner and 19th Ct. Germany when you use terms like "boneheaded". 

I can understand and appreciate that. I also consider the nationalism in Germany in the 20th century to have been boneheaded. For me, it's acceptable to be at least somewhat dismissive of such horrifically stupid thinking.

And meaning neither offense nor disrespect, either, I'm not sure if you are comfortably appreciating the concept of 19th ct. nationalism. Wagner isn't
(And "brutal"? Where do you get that from? Ruthless, perhaps.) His is not the same nationalism of, say, Werner Sombart or Carl Schmitt. Being all too casual in dismissing the (in this case political, not racial or musical) views of influential past figures like Wagner just doesn't sit too well with me. One could go that very route and dismiss Aristotle and his boneheaded ideas of not including women (as actors or voters) in the polis of his day. Should he have had enough brains to see how ridiculous such views were? 

Cheers, mate...

Very good points. Again we're back to attempting to both separate and juxtapose the artist and the "thinker". I admire how you are making a great effort to get away from the value-judgment part of the topic.

You're right, a cool head is always the best bet, particularly during any sort of debate. And I totally sympathise with your positions.

[greg]

Hmmm...I've never heard Bernstein's Wagner, so now of course I'm curious.

Ever watch this? Looks like he's a bit too into it... he might have had to clean himself up when he finished. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XlmJtnzwkY

[Haffner]

Ever watch this? Looks like he's a bit too into it... he might have had to clean himself up when he finished. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XlmJtnzwkY

Cool! Reminds me of Solti in the Golden Ring.

[Brünnhilde ewig]

somewhat dismissive of such horrifically stupid thinking.

Dear Andy: Do me a favour and drop your judgement of political conditions in Germany and the thinking of the German people; stick to the subject of Wagner's Valhalla, which you spelled wrong to begin with. In Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk it is spelled Walhall!

That's a good boy! 

[Haffner]

Dear Andy: Do me a favour and drop your judgement of political conditions in Germany and the thinking of the German people; stick to the subject of Wagner's Valhalla, which you spelled wrong to begin with. In Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk it is spelled Walhall!

That's a good boy! 

I'm part German, and I still think race-based Nationalism is boneheaded and wrong. Sorry, won't change my tone there. And I never spelled Wagner's Valhalla, somebody else did that.

There's a good girl.

[Haffner]

Incidentally, and in his defense, he's not responsible for the spelling of the title, some 46 pages ago. That was one "Isolde". And if we're talking Wagner's spelling, wouldn't it be "Walhalla"?  

WHOA! Nice website, Jens! Just stumbled on it...I'll be on there for a good portion of this afternoon.

[Wendell_E]

And if we're talking Wagner's spelling, wouldn't it be "Walhalla"?  

Nope, Wagner never has Walhalla, it's always Walhall or the possesive Walhalls.  Though on an English speaking website, I think Valhalla's perfectly fine.

[duncan]

For people who have read reviews (for example, here, here, and here) of the Mariinsky ring just finished in London and are thinking it can't have been that bad.  You're right: it was worse.  An embarrassing shambles that should never have been allowed on stage.

[Anne]

Did they need a new director or conductor?  What was needed to repair the problems?

[Brünnhilde ewig]

While surfing the newspapers I found this insteresting one and because our esteemed member Jens Laurson contributed to the article, I believe it'll interest you:

Critic's Notebook: Mike Antonovich vs. Wagner
8:45 PM, July 15, 2009  

On Tuesday, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich called for Los Angeles Opera -- which is scheduled to mount Wagner's four-opera "Ring" cycle next spring as well as coordinate a citywide festival on the "Ring" -- to "delete the focus on Wagner." He asks this on the grounds that Wagner was a racist and anti-Semite whose music Hitler enjoyed and employed to his own ends. In addition to Wagner, the supervisor suggests we turn to, among others, Mendelssohn, Schubert and Schumann, great composers who never properly mastered opera.

Posted by: Jens F. Laurson | July 16, 2009 at 08:12 AM
What Ms. Delmar and Supervisor Antonovich fail to understand (and I realize that is a big category in and of itself) is that it is not a Festival examining Wagner and his Ring cycle that will make LA look foolish, but the fact that this city would have this "debate" at all in this day and age that does so. Wagner, like all humans, was a complicated person with both good and bad qualities. Some of them, like his anti-Semitism are sadly quite common in people. Others, like his artistic achievements, are among the most rare in our species. To suggest that we should not discuss and focus on the life and work of a single person who did great things because some of his opinions from over a century ago don't jibe with our modern day sense of fairness or that he shared opinions with others who much later on did unspeakable things is so myopic it begs reason. We celebrate "great" individuals every day who were anti-Semities, racists, and frankly worse for far less than Wagner achieved. (Lincoln and Washington were not the nicest of guys at times either, believe you me.) To sort out only those historical figures who said and believed all of the things we feel most comfortable with today would leave us very little to talk about.
On the plus side though, all this does get Supervisor Antonovich and Ms. Delmar's name in the paper during a slow news cycle, which was probably the goal to begin with. It will probably also generate greater attention, ticket sales, and financial support for LA Opera. The city's image may be a little worse for the wear, but Los Angeles has always suffered from an anti-intellectual reputation.

[Brünnhilde ewig]

The entire article can be read here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/07/mike-antonovich-and-wagner.html

[Haffner]

The entire article can be read here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/07/mike-antonovich-and-wagner.html

This is an extremely interesting article, Brünnhilde. Thank you very much for posting it. I'm going to read it again now to make sure I absorb it all.

[jlaurson]

While surfing the newspapers I found this insteresting one and because our esteemed member Jens Laurson contributed to the article, I believe it'll interest you:

Critic's Notebook: Mike Antonovich vs. Wagner
8:45 PM, July 15, 2009  

On Tuesday, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich called for Los Angeles Opera -- which is scheduled to mount Wagner's four-opera "Ring" cycle next spring as well as coordinate a citywide festival on the "Ring" -- to "delete the focus on Wagner." He asks this on the grounds that Wagner was a racist and anti-Semite whose music Hitler enjoyed and employed to his own ends. In addition to Wagner, the supervisor suggests we turn to, among others, Mendelssohn, Schubert and Schumann, great composers who never properly mastered opera.
----------------------
Finally a writer who knows (and points out) that the very term "Anti Semitism" (Treitschke) wasn't coined until after Wagner's death (or at least late in his life).

It's interesting that the whole "WagnerTheJewHater" still comes up every so often... unabated vigor. Much more so than "We should never again drive a [Mercedes / Ford]" or "Aspirin is a Nazi-Medicine", these days, though those were once popular, too. And more often than not, it comes from the class of the professionally aggrieved, not the alleged victims on whose behalf they are unsolicitedly posturing.

Posted by: Jens F. Laurson | July 16, 2009 at 08:12 AM
----------------------
What Ms. Delmar and Supervisor Antonovich fail to understand (and I realize that is a big category in and of itself) is that it is not a Festival examining Wagner and his Ring cycle that will make LA look foolish, but the fact that this city would have this "debate" at all in this day and age that does so. Wagner, like all humans, was a complicated person with both good and bad qualities. Some of them, like his anti-Semitism are sadly quite common in people. Others, like his artistic achievements, are among the most rare in our species. To suggest that we should not discuss and focus on the life and work of a single person who did great things because some of his opinions from over a century ago don't jibe with our modern day sense of fairness or that he shared opinions with others who much later on did unspeakable things is so myopic it begs reason. We celebrate "great" individuals every day who were anti-Semities, racists, and frankly worse for far less than Wagner achieved. (Lincoln and Washington were not the nicest of guys at times either, believe you me.) To sort out only those historical figures who said and believed all of the things we feel most comfortable with today would leave us very little to talk about.
On the plus side though, all this does get Supervisor Antonovich and Ms. Delmar's name in the paper during a slow news cycle, which was probably the goal to begin with. It will probably also generate greater attention, ticket sales, and financial support for LA Opera. The city's image may be a little worse for the wear, but Los Angeles has always suffered from an anti-intellectual reputation.
Posted by: brian | July 16, 2009 at 08:24 AM

Although much of this response COULD have been by me--indeed, reading it now, I even thought for a while it WAS me who had written it--I can't take credit. It was a certain "Brian". [Although it almost feels as though the bold part was plagiarized from my thoughts.] I merely wrote the post above the one quoted here.

[Brünnhilde ewig]

Well! Then I better set the record straight and post here your contribution:

Finally a writer who knows (and points out) that the very term "Anti Semitism" (Treitschke) wasn't coined until after Wagner's death (or at least late in his life).

It's interesting that the whole "WagnerTheJewHater" still comes up every so often... unabated vigor. Much more so than "We should never again drive a [Mercedes / Ford]" or "Aspiring is a Nazi-Medicine", these days, though those were once popular, too. And more often than not, it comes from the class of the professionally aggrieved, not the alleged victims on whose behalf they are unsolicitedly posturing.

Posted by: Jens F. Laurson | July 16, 2009 at 08:12 AM

[Valentino]

Meanwhile, in Hamar, Norway, Kirsten Flagstad's childhood home is getting a new coat of paint.

[Brünnhilde ewig]

Meanwhile in Bayreuth: Tristan and Bratwurst:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4554432,00.html

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Meanwhile in Bayreuth: Tristan and Bratwurst:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4554432,00.html

Thanks for Sandals and Isolde.