Wagner's Valhalla

[snyprrr]

See how quickly you guys get off topic!

[snyprrr]

Anyhow, I WILL take off the no singing restriction, if that will make everyone's job easier, haha, however, I notoriously hate opera singing, so, the 'smoother' the better (I know, I know, I'm demanding in a Wagner Thread, haha!). I might prefer the voices more in the texture, if that's possible.

I remember the scene in the forest, from Ludwig, where there is courtship going on,... that was nice. If anyone hasn't seen it, by all means do.

[DavidRoss]

See how quickly you guys get off topic!

Well, it's either that or discuss Wagner....

I picked up Alberich, because he is one of my favorite opera characters and along with Wotan he is the character that I find most comfortable to identify with.

I suspect you'll get along just fine here! 

[kaergaard]

Alberich! The man who has the very last word in the greatest work every put together by a mortal using a small number of musical notes!

Welcome, and don't fret about your English, we are an internatianal bunch of people! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Alberich! The man who has the very last word in the greatest work every put together by a mortal using a small number of musical notes!

Erm - that was his son Hagen... 

[kaergaard]

Hurrah! I did it again! Three times in a row getting my names loused up. Do I get a reward for that achievement? 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hurrah! I did it again! Three times in a row getting my names loused up. Do I get a reward for that achievement? 

Wagner forgives you. 

[snyprrr]

For one reason or another, YouTube vids don't show up (and I have followed Rob's instructions to the letter). So I'll simply give this link to the famous Prelude of Tristan und Isolde (to see the chord 'in action', so to speak). In Visconti's Ludwig music from this work figures prominently...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fktwPGCR7Yw

ok, so now I remember why I was kind of having a problem. You're going to say I'm crazy, but @6:20, it sounds like Tchaikovsky to me, Romeo&Juliet, the big moment, but, without the big moment.

So, that's why I've never been able to deal with either Tchaikovsky or Wagner,... why can't there be a perfect union of the two, without either's drawbacks? PT comes too much, RW not enough.

But, that is why I never made it past that Prelude. Now I remember.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The 'point' of the Prelude, snyprrr, is exactly the absence of  the 'big moment'. It expresses unresolved yearning, a longing that can find no fulfilment. So you couldn't, either... Only at the end of the opera, with 'Isolde's Transfiguration' (better known as her 'Liebestod'), we get that 'big moment'.

As for Tchaikovsky uniting with Wagner in a perfect union for your benefit, heaven forbid! Let them both be 'romantic' in their very separate ways...

[Guido]

ok, so now I remember why I was kind of having a problem. You're going to say I'm crazy, but @6:20, it sounds like Tchaikovsky to me, Romeo&Juliet, the big moment, but, without the big moment.

So, that's why I've never been able to deal with either Tchaikovsky or Wagner,... why can't there be a perfect union of the two, without either's drawbacks? PT comes too much, RW not enough.

But, that is why I never made it past that Prelude. Now I remember.

Amazing, that you so perfectly experienced what Wagner intended! Have you read about this at all - did you know that's how you were meant to feel?!

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Erm - that was his son Hagen... 

Yeah, but Alberich is one of the only characters who doesn't die. Can't deny Hagen's awesomeness either, though. He is like Iago from Othello, master manipulator, using Siegfried's perjury as his advantage, and finally when Siegfried is out of the way, he even kills freaking Gunther of the Gibichungs. Damn, Hagen is pretty cool guy. He kills stuff and doesn't afraid of anything.

...Oh, I get it. You meant last line, "Zurück vom Ring!" which was indeed by Hagen. I almost thought that by "getting the last word" Kaergaard was referring that Alberich kind of triumphs even though Ring gets back to the Rhinemaidens, since almost everyone else gets pretty nasty end. In original Siegfried's tod-libretto there was even line "And Alberich and the Nibelungs shall be free again". I wonder what Alberich is up to after Götterdämmerung... maybe another try with those ****** of Rhein. They are soon gonna lose their virginity along with gold.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Can't deny Hagen's awesomeness either, though. He is like Iago from Othello, master manipulator, using Siegfried's perjury as his advantage, and finally when Siegfried is out of the way, he even kills freaking Gunther of the Gibichungs. Damn, Hagen is pretty cool guy. He kills stuff and doesn't afraid of anything.

I always feel sympathy for Hagen, son of a Gibichung mother and a Nibelung father. He isn't master of his own fate, but is manipulated and coerced by his (sorry!) terrible father to manipulate others. He is a tragic character, joyless and haunted. That nightly visitation by Alberich at the beginning of the Second Act of Götterdämmerung must be among the creepiest things Wagner ever wrote. Iago, on the other hand, really is an evil schemer. Compared to him, even Alberich is all too human - it is thwarted lust, after all, that makes Alberich steal the gold, whereas Iago simply gets a kick out of destroying Othello, citing several spurious reasons to himself for doing so. 'Motiveless malignity', as Coleridge called it.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Oh, I completely agree that Hagen is not really evil. Like i said in my previous post: I cannot name single really evil or good character, but mix of both, like real humans (Even Elsa from Lohengrin is kind of proud snob and Gutrune, although wasn't aware that Siegfried had already fallen in love and tolerated lot of Brünnhilde's bitching, still used love potion). I didn't really mean that he was same as Iago, just compared their intelligence and wanted to praise Hagen  . Although, I'd like to point out that even Iago has both in the play and in Verdi's opera version couple humane points, though only brief, such as in end of his credo when he looks into his soul and seems somewhat petrified. And let's not forget that in play Iago strongly suspects that Othello has had sex with Emilia which although doesn't have anything to do with Desdemona, still gives him some kind of motive. Hagen was certainly not worse than many other characters such as Siegfried who killed Mime after all these years he had taken care of him and who was justified in his hatred, cause Siegfried was really kind of jerk to him. I also feel sorry for Hagen and to me it seems that Wagner was kind of using Hagen's loveless impregnation as metaphor: no love between parents = these tragic beings like Hagen. Of course, someone may say that Hagen was just character created by Wagner's antisemitic opinions and also implying that bastard son = supposedly "antagonist" but I don't agree with that. Especially since Hagen is really strong and in many ways admirable character.

And to defend Alberich: he is very similar to Wotan, even Wotan calls himself "Licht-Alberich". Alberich was rejected and mocked by Rhinemaidens and I don't think he really steals gold for vengeance but as a replacement for love which he cursed after he saw how cruel it was: similarly, Wotan stole branch from World-ash-tree and had to pay his other eye: so they both really just made a trade: and although Alberich enslaved his people, Wotan would have done same to the entire world (which was ultimately also Alberich's goal) and as a keeper of laws that would lead to a disaster as Ring was not his. So, in my opinion: also Alberich and Wotan are very humane and sympathetic characters.

Of course, everyone has their own opinions (thank you captain obvious!).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

And to defend Alberich: he is very similar to Wotan, even Wotan calls himself "Licht-Alberich". Alberich was rejected and mocked by Rhinemaidens and I don't think he really steals gold for vengeance but as a replacement for love which he cursed after he saw how cruel it was: similarly, Wotan stole branch from World-ash-tree and had to pay his other eye: so they both really just made a trade: and although Alberich enslaved his people, Wotan would have done same to the entire world (which was ultimately also Alberich's goal) and as a keeper of laws that would lead to a disaster as Ring was not his. So, in my opinion: also Alberich and Wotan are very humane and sympathetic characters.

Agreed. Excellent post! Wotan and Alberich are 'Licht-Albe' and 'Schwarz-Albe'. They both crave power and they both 'use' their sons (Siegmund and Hagen) to further their goal. The difference being - Wotan gives up, though he has difficulty relinquishing his power (confrontation with his grandson Siegfried). One aspect of Wagner's greatness - apart from the astonishing music - is, indeed, his penetrating insight into human nature, himself not excluded.

[DavidRoss]

One aspect of Wagner's greatness is, indeed, his penetrating insight into human nature

Examples?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Examples?

Let's say Wagner is able to create, in Hans Sachs, in Wotan, in Fricka, in Tristan, Isolde et al,  thoroughly believable human beings with a music that can match their every mood, and makes us know them. He is not alone in this ability, but it's the whole package, of deep understanding combined with a very powerful music, that make him very special. But I'd rather you experience that for yourself (or not, as the case may be).

[jlaurson]

Examples?

In all fairness: probably every character in the Ring. And most, if not all, other operas of his. The amount of gray, rather than black and white, alone! The astonishing subtleties and the nuance of his characters... The complexity of emotions, actions, reactions, and motivation (no character does something without having a perceptible motivation to do so) lift his operas dramatically to the level of most top-level playwrights. Only the language isn't all that great (though still better than its reputation). And then he combines it with music that has a psychological level of its own... (I quote from "Extras, Episode One": "It's layered. It was made like that." It's in all that where Wagner's greatness as a creator lies.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

@jlaurson I think we're in agreement here... 'Extras'? By Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant? I love it!

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I have thought about making "favorite wagner leitmotives"-topic, but is it so closely related to this topic that should I just put my thoughts about them here? At least I didn't find any topics especially focused on that when I searched, but if I may have missed one, then please wound me with Holy Spear and lead me to it.

[Scarpia]

In all fairness: probably every character in the Ring. And most, if not all, other operas of his. The amount of gray, rather than black and white, alone! The astonishing subtleties and the nuance of his characters... The complexity of emotions, actions, reactions, and motivation (no character does something without having a perceptible motivation to do so) lift his operas dramatically to the level of most top-level playwrights. Only the language isn't all that great (though still better than its reputation). And then he combines it with music that has a psychological level of its own... (I quote from "Extras, Episode One": "It's layered. It was made like that." It's in all that where Wagner's greatness as a creator lies.

I don't doubt that the characters in the Ring are complex creations.  My problem with Wagner is the mode of story-telling.  First we watch the action, then time stops and the characters explain their exact motivations to us at great length.