Wagner's Valhalla

[snyprrr]

Pretty sure he did... I suggested that he try Wagner for Brass instead. 0:)




----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder  Hogwood - K 248b 250alt  Symphony in D 5th mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai

Stop! Stop! You're killin' me! I'll wake the neighbors if I laugh any harder!

Can't... write through... tears ...

  WHAT??!! Now that is sacrilegious!  Wagner without any singing  and worst yet,  played by a brass band  what is this world coming to??

  marvin

runs away dodging lightning bolts...

You mean you've never heard it?!?! It's a classic! 

Stop! Stop!  I can't take it anymore!!

tears...tears...

[snyprrr]

Yes, I know the disc exists. My response was to his question, "Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?" I can't believe he's serious. I think he's putting us on. It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge

It was here that coffee sprayed all over the monitor! The sense of annoyance was too much for me.

[Sergeant Rock]

I was here that coffee sprayed all over the monitor!

Then my work here is done 

Sarge

[jlaurson]

Yes, I know the disc exists. My response was to his question, "Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?" I can't believe he's serious. I think he's putting us on. It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge

Or as silly as a hurdy-gurdy version of Die Winterreise, huh...

Whatever does the trick, I suppose. Were someone to get the Wagner-on-Brass CD and didn't like it... surely they would not lay all the blame at Wagner's feet, fully aware that Wagner didn't necessarily have that version in mind.
Listening to Uri Caine's "Goldberg Variations" now, after that FANTASTIC Ullmann disc mentioned in the "Purchases Today" thread.

[bigshot]

Didn't Wagner make special arrangements of his music for a brass quartet that would call the audience back from intermission at Bayreuth?

[jlaurson]

Didn't Wagner make special arrangements of his music for a brass quartet that would call the audience back from intermission at Bayreuth?

yep.

from "Wagneroperas.com" THE FANFARES
Before each performance is given at the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, and towards the end of each interval of those works that are divided into acts, a group of brass players appears on the balcony above Ludwig's extension and plays a fanfare based on a motive from the act of the opera that is about to start inside. They play three times before the performance begins or continues. It is a great Bayreuth tradition, and the magnificent playing gives you a hint of what you will hear inside.

Here are the motives used, as specified by Richard Wagner:

TANNHÄUSER
Act I - Hunt motive
Act II - Opening of the Entry of the Guests
Act III - Pardon motive

LOHENGRIN
Act I - The King's Call
Act II - The Mystery of the Name (Nie sollst du mich befragen)
Act III - Grail motive

TRISTAN UND ISOLDE
Act I - Young Sailor's Song
Act II - Death motive
Act III - Fragment of Shepherd's Melody

DIE MEISTERSINGER
Act I - The Masters' motive (opening of prelude)
Act II - Serenade
Act III - Fanfare of the Guilds

DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN
Das Rheingold - Donner's Thunder (He-da! He-da He-do!)
Die Walküre
Acts I and II - Sword motive (short form)
Act III - Sword motive (long form)
Siegfried
Act I - Siegfried's Horn Call (short form)
Act II - Siegfried's Horn Call (long form)
Act III - Siegfried the Hero
Götterdämmerung
Act I - Alberich's Curse on the Ring
Act II - Gibichung Horn Call
Act III - Valhalla motive

PARSIFAL
Act I - Redemption or Fellowship motive
Act II - Parsifal's motive (initial form)
Act III - Variant of Redemption motive

Interestingly, Richard Wagner did not specify a fanfare for Der fliegende Holländer, therefore before the start of this one act work, a motive from the opening of the overture is used as a fanfare.

[Sergeant Rock]

Or as silly as a hurdy-gurdy version of Die Winterreise, huh...

You know I have nothing against transcriptions. I'm not a purist. I own Stokowski's Bach and Walter/Wendy's Switched-on Bach. One of my favorite pieces is Hindemith's brilliant Fliegende Holländer parody. I played many band transcriptions of the classics, including Wagner, in high school. I might buy the Philip Jones CD for myself. But that's all beside the point. Snyprrr asked (seriously or not) "I don't really want to hear Pictures at an Exhibition for brass, but Wagner? Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?"No, it is not a good idea. If he's serious about coming to grips with Wagner then he needs to hear Wagner, not a transcription. It's telling that he won't accept anything less than Mussorgsky for Mussorgsky but he's willing to buy bastardized Wagner. He needs someone to straighten him out. I accept that role 

Whatever does the trick, I suppose.

In theory, yes...and if Snyprrr were 12 years old and unfamiliar with classical music I might suggest somethng like that. But the guy's a veteran. What possible problem could he have hearing Wagner's own orchestrations? Why would he not want to start with the originals? That he even asks the question convinces me he's not really serious. Maybe he became temporarily bored with piano quintets and string quartets and decided to make mischief elsewhere 

In any case, David Ross gave him the correct answer shortly after Snyprrr's first appearance here: if he wants Wagner without the caterwauling, he should buy Szell's bleeding chunks. P. Jones can be his second purchase.

Sarge

[bigshot]

Stoke did some nice symphonic synthesises of the Wagner operas.

[Bulldog]

In theory, yes...and if Snyprrr were 12 years old and unfamiliar with classical music I might suggest somethng like that. But the guy's a veteran. What possible problem could he have hearing Wagner's own orchestrations? Why would he not want to start with the originals? That he even asks the question convinces me he's not really serious. Maybe he became temporarily bored with piano quintets and string quartets and decided to make mischief elsewhere 

Is he ever serious?  The way he writes and what he writes give me the impression that he has no interest in being taken seriously.

[Scarpia]

In any case, David Ross gave him the correct answer shortly after Snyprrr's first appearance here: if he wants Wagner without the caterwauling, he should buy Szell's bleeding chunks. P. Jones can be his second purchase.

I never made any headway with Wagner with the bleeding chunks approach.  In anything past Rienzi, the orchestral interlude doesn't reach the destination, it transitions to something else and leaves you hanging.  Only the real thing works, in my experience.

[bigshot]

I agree, but it kinda depends on what version they're using. Wagner had concert versions of some of the bits from the Ring that were written to have self contained endings. Stoki's Symphonic Synthesises are taken from a lot of places in the score of the operas, but they're worked into a sort of tone poem format that functions well enough as what it is... Not a replacement for the original, but nice as what it is.

[jlaurson]

I never made any headway with Wagner with the bleeding chunks approach. ...

Different ways lead to Rome. Clearly, bleeding chunks would be able to kindle an interest in Wagner that aims at a different aspect of his work than being exposed to the works-as-such... but that's fine.

Whatever kindles the interest -- even in aspects that do not pertain to the opera as a whole. Beauty of a single movement... the portrayal of emotions like irony (excerpt T&I, Act 1), the heightened sense of yearning and true love (excerpt Rheingold, Scene 3??, Fasolt's declaration of love)... these bits are just seconds long... but might well suffice to interest some (not all) in some (not all) aspects of Wagner which has them explore more later (or not). Most people, though perhaps not the majority of us GMG-geeks, will have approached Wagner through non-vocal venues. (It'd be great stuff if people didn't interrupt it with screaming all the time.)

[marvinbrown]

Different ways lead to Rome. Clearly, bleeding chunks would be able to kindle an interest in Wagner that aims at a different aspect of his work than being exposed to the works-as-such... but that's fine.

Most people, though perhaps not the majority of us GMG-geeks, will have approached Wagner through non-vocal venues. (It'd be great stuff if people didn't interrupt it with screaming all the time.)

  This upsets me, why is it Wagner and only Wagner that has to be "deconstructed" in order to become accessible?


  Take a it like a man or don't take it at all that's what I say!!!!!

marvin

[DavidRoss]

(It'd be great stuff if people didn't interrupt it with screaming all the time.)

   

  This upsets me, why is it Wagner and only Wagner that has to be "deconstructed" in order to become accessible?

Have you heard much 20th Century music yet?

Note that Wagner's ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid and tuneless "music dramas" present special challenges even for the subset of classical music lovers who appreciate opera.  If he weren't such a special case, he wouldn't attract so many fans who feel that overcoming the challenges and loving him unreservedly makes them superior to everyone else.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

(excerpt Rheingold, Scene 3??, Fasolt's declaration of love)

This may be nitpicking but because this is about Wagner drama... yeah, I remember when Fasolt went to Nibelheim with Loge and Wotan and confessed his love to Alberich in scene 3. His desire for Freia in scene 2 was just a cover for his homosexuality. Who would pick hot chick when you can have handsome Alberich? Take that Rhinemaidens!

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Melot was really jealous because Isolde stole his Tristan. 

[marvinbrown]

   
Have you heard much 20th Century music yet?

Note that Wagner's ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid and tuneless "music dramas" present special challenges even for the subset of classical music lovers who appreciate opera.  If he weren't such a special case, he wouldn't attract so many fans who feel that overcoming the challenges and loving him unreservedly makes them superior to everyone else.

  Ok now you are being self righteous  ........

marvin

[knight66]

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Melot was really jealous because Isolde stole his Tristan. 

I can remember reading that as a mainspring of one recent production. I think it was in NY, but not the Met.

Mike

[knight66]

I enjoy this a lot.



Well played, good sound. However, it is not a disc of highlights, but a supposed symphony in four movements. I don't think it feels like a symphony, but it is of course crammed with great music.

Mike

[Scarpia]

I enjoy this a lot.



Well played, good sound. However, it is not a disc of highlights, but a supposed symphony in four movements. I don't think it feels like a symphony, but it is of course crammed with great music.

Mike

I must say I had the opposite reaction, bored to tears, and that from a person who owns at least 5 ring cycles.   

[knight66]

You are just such a red-meat eater. 

Mike