Wagner's Valhalla

[marvinbrown]

You keep putting words into my mouth as if you are willfully misreading me and reciting your impression of tunefulness as if that refutes the general perception I referenced.  Have it your way:  Marvin's wrong, Wagner is not unique and doesn't require "deconstruction" for most to appreciate him, and the general public adores him with "Kill da Wabbit" only one among dozens of popular tunes known and loved by all.

We're back to you blaming Wagner for not doing what he never wanted to do. And I disagree with Marvin, who in any case I think was referring to the extramusical baggage in Wagner, not the music as such. Wagner didn't write "songs" in your narrow sense. But if you'd open your ears, you'd notice that a lot of the composers you admire, already pointed in that directions, as you can see in the example above. Yet it's simply inaccurate to say that Wagner's music is "tuneless", a claim easily refuted with all the many familiar themes and leitmotives, from the Holländer horn call, to "kill the wabbit" to the Tristan chord, to Nie sollst du mich befragen, etc.

  Excuse me but what I was objecting to were some peoples' wishes to hear Wagner without words, deconstructed so that his music is played by a brass band to become more accessible!  This led me to object and ask  why? oh why is it that Wagner and Wagner alone needs to be deconstructed so that SOME people find it accessible??

  marvin 

[MishaK]

It's in fact exactly as long as it needs to be dramatically, and not a note longer. That's typical of mature Wagner. He is, in fact, one of the most economical composers who ever lived.

Wagner was one of the greatest dramatists who ever lived, but his genius as a dramatist cannot be found in his text alone as Wagner was not a mere dramatist such as, say, Shakespeare, Wagner's natural opposite in the world of letters, but a music-dramatist.

Please stop writing! It's overinflated buffoons like yourself who turn the uninitiated off from this music. Anyone who writes such absurd hyperbole and actually believes it needs professional help. If you really think you're so smart and everyone needs to attend the ACD University before being permitted to have an opinion of Wagner, you'll soon be sitting alone in the opera house, in which case I hope you're obscenely wealthy, because otherwise it will be the end of staged productions of his music.

Wagner was human. Not a demigod. What he wrote is not beyond criticism. There is no question that certain of his works are more succinct, dramatically more easily borught off on stage, etc. than others.

And this...:

As for Wagner's alleged self-indulgence and his need to "enlist the aid of a skilled dramatist to write the libretto instead of doing it himself," that's patent rubbish and betrays an ignorance of both Wagner the music-dramatist and of his creative "method".

His text cannot be assessed absent the music that was organically linked to it at the moment of its writing even though Wagner hadn't yet written so much as a measure of that music. Wagner's mature creative method — not a method he devised but something that was his uncalculated native way of going about the thing — was NOT to write the words, then compose music to accompany those words. As Wagner wrote the words, he "heard" in his mind's ear the "shape" and sense of the music that was to be linked to those words and, if need be, adjusted the words to suit. That creative method is what's responsible for the unparalleled organic oneness of music and text in mature Wagner, and why one cannot pull apart text and music in Wagner's mature works and hope to get the real sense of either, something Wagner discovered for himself only after writing the music for his first music-drama, Das Rheingold.

... is just certifiable silliness that could only have been penned by a non-native German speaker. Show Wagner's librettos to any native speaker of German and their eyes will glaze over by page 3 at the latest. His is some of the most turgid prose ever penned, even for his period. Wagner, by no stretch of the imagination, was ever as skilled at capturing language with music as Janacek, Richard Strauss or Mozart, for all three of whom it was indeed inseparable from the music they wrote for their texts. Wagner is essential to the Western musical canon and his works need to be heard and will endure without doubt. But let's not give him accolades for things at which he did not particularly excel.

  Excuse me but what I was objecting to were some peoples' wishes to hear Wagner without words, deconstructed so that his music is played by a brass band to become more accessible!  This led me to object and ask  why? oh why is it that Wagner and Wagner alone needs to be deconstructed so that SOME people find it accessible??

Thanks for clarifying.

[Scarpia]

Please stop writing!

I think he may be channeling Wotan here.   

[bigshot]

The narratives serve a purpose. They reveal the different perspectives of the various characters on the same events, and also internal struggle. Most operas deal with fairly black and white issues but the Ring is all a matter of whose perspective you're looking at it from.

In Siegfried, the dialogues between Siegfried and Mime and the Wanderer and Mime are actually funny if you understand the language. I discovered this when I saw the Ring in English in Seattle in the 80s.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Apart from Parsifal, which lacks memorable tunes aside from the "Dresden Amen", and Tristan

Have to most respectfully disagree. I find it almost impossible to not memorize Parsifal's triumphant brass motive, "Reine Tor"-motiv, every time so moving "Faith", Klingsor's chromatic yet still clearly visible leitmotiv, Hero Tristan, Tristan chord, Kurwenal motive, lamenting shepherd's tune etc.

@Sherman: Is it that Wagner's operas are too long... or that other operas are too short? Implying that they are too long sounds like that when people are going to opera they just want to get out of there as soon as possible. Editing would be a sacrilege, especially when (like many others have noted) there is no single note that shouldn't be there. The apparent lack of action really depends on production and when looking at librettos (which also include Wagner's notes about scenery, positions and action) you can see that even in most passive scenes there is happening a lot of things (they of course don't necessarily fit into all productions, one reason why I prefer recordings instead of live, where you are free to use your imagination). And when action seemingly stops, the music that reminds us of all conflicts that still roam. Even though Wagner didn't necessarily agree with this, I am gonna say: "Music begins where words (action in this case) ends". You can also compare Sergio Leone's westerns with this: Leone felt that everything that eventually led to action is more important than action itself.

Edit: I apologize. I didn't mean to sound rude, Wagner is one of those topics where I may get little too excited.

[A.C. Douglas]

Please stop writing! It's overinflated buffoons like yourself who turn the uninitiated off from this music. Anyone who writes such absurd hyperbole and actually believes it needs professional help. [..] Wagner was human. Not a demigod. What he wrote is not beyond criticism. There is no question that certain of his works are more succinct, dramatically more easily borught off on stage, etc. than others.

Have you some sort of cognitive deficit, sonny, or is it that you simply can't understand plain English? I never suggested or even so much as implied that Wagner was a demigod or that what he wrote was beyond criticism. Read again what I wrote, more slowly this time, and maybe you'll learn something you badly need to learn where Wagner is concerned. You could also do with some lessons in common courtesy and decency.

And this...:is just certifiable silliness that could only have been penned by a non-native German speaker. Show Wagner's librettos to any native speaker of German and their eyes will glaze over by page 3 at the latest.

There's that cognitive deficit rearing its ugly head again. Didn't I just get finished instructing you that Wagner's text can NEVER be assessed apart from its organically linked music? Of course I did. Once again, read what I wrote again, slowly, and do make some sort of at least token effort to overcome your clear cognitive impediment.

There's a good fellow.

ACD

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Wagner died two days ago, plus 128 years; in two years' time those who love his music will celebrate his bicentenary; and the arguments won't die down... What a man!

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Please stop writing! It's overinflated buffoons like yourself who turn the uninitiated off from this music. Anyone who writes such absurd hyperbole and actually believes it needs professional help.

Yeah! How dare you have an individual opinion... jerk.

[MishaK]

Have you some sort of cognitive deficit, sonny, or is it that you simply can't understand plain English? I never suggested or even so much as implied that Wagner was a demigod or that what he wrote was beyond criticism. Read again what I wrote, more slowly this time, and maybe you'll learn something you badly need to learn where Wagner is concerned. You could also do with some lessons in common courtesy and decency.

There's that cognitive deficit rearing its ugly head again. Didn't I just get finished instructing you that Wagner's text can NEVER be assessed apart from its organically linked music? Of course I did. Once again, read what I wrote again, slowly, and do make some sort of at least token effort to overcome your clear cognitive impediment.

You suffer from delusions of grandeur. You are in no position to "instruct" anyone. If you care at all about Wagner's music, it would do you well to acquire some grasp about how to interact with people in a less condescendingly pompous manner. It accomplishes the opposite of what you seek. ... Unless, of course, what you seek is to caress your precious little ego and convince yourself of your superiority over the rest of the world. Your choice.

BTW, you misspoke. It's not that "Wagner's text can NEVER be assessed apart from its organically linked music". Rather Wagner's text is certifiable crap without the music which elevates it onto spheres it would otherwise never reach. Thankfully the text isn't so bad as to impede the music's success, but your exalting it to something it simply isn't. Get over yourself.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

His is some of the most turgid prose ever penned, even for his period. Wagner, by no stretch of the imagination, was ever as skilled at capturing language with music as Janacek, Richard Strauss or Mozart, for all three of whom it was indeed inseparable from the music they wrote for their texts.

It's a good thing I don't know how to read or I could have sworn you just said that Janacek, Strauss and Mozart were better in capturing the language with music and also mocking Wagner's ability to create awesome opera librettos from very different sources.

[A.C. Douglas]

You [A.C. Douglas] suffer from delusions of grandeur. You are in no position to "instruct" anyone. If you care at all about Wagner's music, it would do you well to acquire some grasp about how to interact with people in a less condescendingly pompous manner. It accomplishes the opposite of what you seek. ... Unless, of course, what you seek is to caress your precious little ego and convince yourself of your superiority over the rest of the world. Your choice.

Oh dear. You need to learn to respect and honor your clear superiors, m'boy. By your crude, discourteous, and insulting remarks you succeed only in making a spectacle of yourself, and reveal yourself to be a fool into the bargain.

Now, pop a couple Valium tablets or the equivalent, and lie down for a bit and mellow out until the lunacy passes.

There's a good fellow.

ACD

[Gurn Blanston]

Ah, my good friend, ACD. Always such a delight when you come visit our little sandbox. If there is one thing that remains consistent, year by slithering year, it is the blessing of your presence ensuring that Our Boy Dickie gets his just due.

I do wish, however that you would take the supercilious portion of your attitude and make at least a vague effort at kicking some sand on it. It seems as though in your efforts to promote good will to Wagner, the net result is less than that. Pity really. I just hope like hell that you don't take a shine to Haydn...

[A.C. Douglas]

Ah, my good friend, ACD. Always such a delight when you come visit our little sandbox. If there is one thing that remains consistent, year by slithering year, it is the blessing of your presence ensuring that Our Boy Dickie gets his just due.

I do wish, however that you would take the supercilious portion of your attitude and make at least a vague effort at kicking some sand on it. It seems as though in your efforts to promote good will to Wagner, the net result is less than that. Pity really. I just hope like hell that you don't take a shine to Haydn...

It's not my intent to "promote good will to Wagner," Gurnatron5500, but merely to educate the Wagner-ignorant who, ignorant though they may be, still insist on making assertions concerning Wagner's works of which it's clear they have only the most meager understanding. If in pursuing that objective I come across as supercilious, so be it. I assure you it's not by design. I simply have a low tolerance for the arrogantly ignorant.

ACD

[Gurn Blanston]

It's not my intent to "promote good will to Wagner," Gurnatron5500, but merely to educate the Wagner-ignorant who, ignorant though they may be, still insist on making assertions concerning Wagner's works of which it's clear they have only the most meager understanding. If in pursuing that objective I come across as supercilious, so be it. I assure you it's not by design. I simply have a low tolerance for the arrogantly ignorant.

ACD

Well that's as well, converts aren't easy to come by, it seems.  In any case, since you last reared up here, we have made a concerted effort to promote civility amongst the troops. We don't want to squash disagreement by any means, however, we are insisting on a modicum of civility.

So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots, and not get quite so heated up. That way leads to retaliation and warfare, and it has been my recent experience that posts, threads and sometimes even entire posters simply disappear into the digital void. Ooh, that sounds almost Wagnerian!   

[Scarpia]

Well that's as well, converts aren't easy to come by, it seems.  In any case, since you last reared up here, we have made a concerted effort to promote civility amongst the troops. We don't want to squash disagreement by any means, however, we are insisting on a modicum of civility.

So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots, and not get quite so heated up. That way leads to retaliation and warfare, and it has been my recent experience that posts, threads and sometimes even entire posters simply disappear into the digital void. Ooh, that sounds almost Wagnerian!   

As a matter of fact, my dear ACD, if you really want to demonstrate your power, perhaps you should turn yourself into a toad.  (Oh wait, I see you have already done so.   0:) )

[MishaK]

So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots,

Actually, they are inseparable. Arrogance invariably stems from ignorance of oneself and is only maintained though unwillingness to learn.

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, they are inseparable. Arrogance invariably stems from ignorance of oneself and is only maintained though unwillingness to learn.

Lots of ignorant people aren't arrogant. They are separable. Arrogance occasionally stems from pathological character defects totally independently of ignorance. Nothing is invariable.

As a matter of fact, my dear ACD, if you really want to demonstrate your power, perhaps you should turn yourself into a toad.  (Oh wait, I see you have already done so.   0:) )

That is singularly unhelpful... 

[A.C. Douglas]

Well that's as well, converts aren't easy to come by, it seems.  In any case, since you last reared up here, we have made a concerted effort to promote civility amongst the troops. We don't want to squash disagreement by any means, however, we are insisting on a modicum of civility.

So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots, and not get quite so heated up. That way leads to retaliation and warfare, and it has been my recent experience that posts, threads and sometimes even entire posters simply disappear into the digital void. Ooh, that sounds almost Wagnerian!   

Your warning is misdirected. Please note where the real incivility (as opposed to snarky argument) began in this thread. I realize I'm only passing through and am not a regular here, but, still, you would do well to direct your warning to the one who most deserves it and not to myself who merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint.

ACD

[Scarpia]

Your warning is directed to the wrong poster, Gurn. Please note where the real incivility (as opposed to snarky argument) began in this thread. I realize I'm only passing through and am not a regular here, but, still, you would do well to direct your warning to the one who most deserves it and not to myself who merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint.

It is clear that you admire yourself.  It is more difficult to arrange to be admired by others. 

[jlaurson]

It is clear that you admire yourself.  It is more difficult to arrange to be admired by others.

Completely unrelated, I think of Dale Carnegie's adage:

"You can make more friends in two months by becoming interested in other people
than you can in two years by trying to get other people interested in you."