Wagner's Valhalla

[Jaakko Keskinen]

The directors. Whether you love or hate Wagner, his influence is fact and thus Wagner IMO earns his place and it doesn't help either that top 20 list included die fledermaus which isn't even an opera but an operetta. Lousy metaphor coming in 3... 2... 1...:

Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.

[knight66]

I'm well aware of your dislike (dare I say, hatred) of my good self, but as you're a moderator here you really ought to exercise more caution and discretion when throwing about such nasty and insupportable charges publicly. As I informed your fellow moderator, Gurnatron5500, the infrequent times I pass through this forum and pause to engage in argument it's because of the appalling Wagner-ignorance of a number of your regular members. And it's not merely that they're Wagner-ignorant, but that they're arrogantly Wagner-ignorant and at least in the case of one of them, a crypto-Wagner-hater into the bargain. (You've another certified Wagner-ignorant Wagner-hater here to my knowledge, but so far he's contributed only a couple lame potshots to this thread during my time here.) Had you exercised due caution and discretion as a moderator you would have seen that the ugly insults began NOT with me, but with one of your regular members (well, actually two of your regular members, but the other one didn't mention me by name although the wording of his very ugly insult made it perfectly clear to just about everyone to whom he was referring). I merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint as I've already noted in my exchange with Gurnatron5500.

All the above notwithstanding, you've nothing further to fear from my presence here. As I've already noted, I'm just passing through and have no intention whatsoever of hanging out. Believe what you will but I've little appetite for this sort of argument and little time for it, and so will retire from active participation in this series of arguments as it's clear my input is neither appreciated nor wanted here.

Just one last closing remark: You really ought to consult a psychiatric dictionary and look up the term "passive[-]aggressive" before using it again. You really ought to, you know.

ACD

I saw no 'nasty and insupportable charges'. I just call it as I find it when, as moderator, someone strolls in and insults the regular members here. As to 'hate'.....you really do think a lot of yourself, contempt for your on-line character certainly, if not your evident knowledge. But you seem to ascribe to the old claim that the only medicine that works is that which is to at least an extent, revolting and you apply the medicine by the ladle.

Try to divide your Wagner comment from your personal comment. As to passive/aggressive...well, as usual you start that way, then once rattled to discover that people are happy to explain that you cause them dyspepsia, you just come right out with the aggression.

Anyway, your work is done, your task is over. Back over the rainbow time I think.

[Scarpia]

The directors. Whether you love or hate Wagner, his influence is fact and thus Wagner IMO earns his place and it doesn't help either that top 20 list included die fledermaus which isn't even an opera but an operetta. Lousy metaphor coming in 3... 2... 1...:

Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.

Well, the directors primary charge is to keep the house from going bankrupt.  I'm sure many of them would love to have lots of Wagner, and have sleepless nights worrying about how to program more Wagner and still find adequate performers and fill seats in order to pay for it. 

[Walther von Stolzing]

The directors. Whether you love or hate Wagner, his influence is fact and thus Wagner IMO earns his place and it doesn't help either that top 20 list included die fledermaus which isn't even an opera but an operetta. Lousy metaphor coming in 3... 2... 1...:

Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.

Unfortunately your idealism doesn't correspond with the economics of most opera houses, or with their lack of ability to even stage Wagner, as Mensch points out. The directors can only do so much with what they're given.

[jlaurson]

Well, the directors primary charge is to keep the house from going bankrupt.  I'm sure many of them would love to have lots of Wagner, and have sleepless nights worrying about how to program more Wagner and still find adequate performers and fill seats in order to pay for it.

Heck, Wagner nearly bankrupted the LA Opera. And the National Opera (Washington) couldn't afford to stage Goetterdaemmerung or put on the (thus unfinished) entire Ring in one year.

[AndyD.]

a crypto-Wagner-hater

Crypto, even. Love it.

will retire from active participation in this series of arguments as it's clear my input is neither appreciated nor wanted here.

Heaven forbid!

As to my alleged (by you) "glorification of [Wagner] by trying to attribute some sort of superhuman genius to him in other spheres beyond the musical," don't be preposterous. I never engage in such idiocy and nothing I've ever written about Wagner and his works, here or elsewhere, has ever attempted anything even approaching "glorification" of the man or the music-dramatist. I leave that sort of thing to the noxious race of Wagnerites among which I'm not numbered....

Aye.



_{Where have I been?}

[knight66]

Fledermaus is a masterpiece, the music is superb.

It has spoken dialogue in it, as does Fidelio. It has lively music in it, as does The Barber of Seville. That Bruderline ensemble reminds me of the reconcilliation ensemble at the end of Mozart's Figaro.

It is worthy of inclusion in any top ranking.

Mike

[MishaK]

Heck, Wagner nearly bankrupted the LA Opera. And the National Opera (Washington) couldn't afford to stage Goetterdaemmerung or put on the (thus unfinished) entire Ring in one year.

Which gets us back to the issue of productions: these days the only way to really do it and not lose money in the process is either a) spend all your money on good singers so that they are the big box office draw, and use just a very sparse minimalist staging that costs little money; or b) make a visual spectacular (a la La Fura dels Baus), so that the extra musical action is the big draw. The latter is a much bigger financial gamble. But just making traditional stagings with meticluously detailed realistic romantic stagings *and* pay for expensive singers just isn't going to work.

[knight66]

I wonder to what extent those productions that are produced in DVD recoup the outlay?

Mike

[AndyD.]

I wonder to what extent those productions that are produced in DVD recoup the outlay?

Mike

It might be telling that even the dvds that could greatly benefit from being reissued/remastered, like the Levine, haven't. Unless the original, source tapes are really bad.

[DavidRoss]

I think it fairly obvious, in the first place, that Wagner's operas demand professional production.  Wherever you have smaller-budget companies, and summer stock opera, in North America, you'll find that their repertory is dominated by the titles in this list.[/font]

To support your point, and Mensch's, in the repertory report in the Met database, 5 of the 20 most performed operas are by Wagner: http://archives.metoperafamily.org/archives/frame.htm

[DavidRoss]

Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.

  Leone's "Westerns" don't really qualify--thus the specific genre "Spaghetti Western" was devised to describe them.  Hmmm...maybe not so far off after all, since Wagner's "music dramas" aren't really operas.

[Luke, honestly!]

Are they Spaghetti Opera, then? I like the sound of that... Sauerkraut Opera, perhaps.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Are they Spaghetti Opera, then?

Only when Giuditta Pasta sung them.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Are they Spaghetti Opera, then? I like the sound of that...

Il Shrine-in-makeover....

[Florestan]

Fledermaus is a masterpiece, the music is superb.

It has spoken dialogue in it, as does Fidelio. It has lively music in it, as does The Barber of Seville.

It is worthy of inclusion in any top ranking.

Yes.

Only when Giuditta Pasta sung them.

Excellent one! 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

  Leone's "Westerns" don't really qualify--thus the specific genre "Spaghetti Western" was devised to describe them.  Hmmm...maybe not so far off after all, since Wagner's "music dramas" aren't really operas.

OT: Tomato tomato, subgenre. And even John Wayne can't stand the icy look of Lee van Cleef, Clint Eastwood, Eli wallach or Gian Maria Volonté... or Henry Fonda (yay, maybe his only villain role!). To me, foreing westerns by Leone are ironically the best ones (not saying american westerns are bad).

Now, back to the topic before I'm gonna get tarred and feathered.

I haven't read all 72 pages, so not sure if this has been asked: What would you say is Wagner's worst opera? You can count die feen, das Liebesverbot, Rienzi and heck, even three surviving pieces from die Hochzeit if you want. From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, mainly because I find it's libretto somewhat weaker than with others, plus I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I haven't read all 72 pages, so not sure if this has been asked: What would you say is Wagner's worst opera? You can count die feen, das Liebesverbot, Rienzi and heck, even three surviving pieces from die Hochzeit if you want. From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, mainly because I find it's libretto somewhat weaker than with others, plus I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

I remember reading a long time ago that Wagner referred to "Tannhäuser" as "meine schlechteste Oper." I would agree, except for "Rienzi." But hardly anybody pays that one any attention outside of the overture.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I have also read that Wagner was never quite satisfied with Tannhäuser and how he felt he still "owed" Tannhäuser to the world. Rienzi's prayer in act 5 scene 1 is really worth of listening: overture uses some musical material from that scene (or vice versa) and it's really beautiful.

[MishaK]

From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, mainly because I find it's libretto somewhat weaker than with others, plus I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

Ooooh, come on! Lohengrin is the best. No "longueurs", just taut drama beginning to end. Lohengrin and Elsa as characters are no weaker than any of his other heroic tragic couples: Siegmund/Sieglinde, Siegfried/Brünnhilde, Tristan/Isolde. All of his lead couples are to an extent less characterized than some of their antagonists or other charcaters, because the real emotional and psychological drama is often not with the lead characters but with characters like Telramund and Ortrud or Wotan etc. etc.