Wagner's Valhalla

[mjwal]

Rocky won his first World Championship against Apollo Creed. That's a fact, even if it's a fictionalized series. Kondwiramur is, in that sense, a fact... just as Parceval is a fact. Facts refer to the frame of reference, not necessarily 'reality'. The latter would be called a 'historical fact'. My point is merely that Kondwiramur does matter in the Wagner context; that in Wagner Kondwiramur is Lohengrin's mother, just as Parsifal is his father... [Whereas in Eschenbach-fact Parzifal is Lohengrin's dad.]

This strikes me as sophistry. Lohengrin and Parsifal do not form a "series". Condwiramurs is not a figure in Parsifal but in Wolfram's Parzifal, where she is the mother of Loherangrin and Kardeiz. Kondwiramur is a not a figure mentioned in Wagner's Lohengrin. That is a fact. "Vom Gral ward ich zu euch daher gesandt: mein Vater Parzival trägt seine Krone,sein Ritter ich - bin Lohengrin genannt."  But in Wagner's Parsifal there are no women in Montsalvat, as all the knights of the Grail are celibate. Parsifal as a work of art is not a sequel to and has nothing to do withLohengrin.

[Sergeant Rock]

Wagner was clearly a miracle worker with an orchestra, the fact that he could only find inspiration in these bastardized medieval texts and not in the passions and dilemmas of actual human beings is my main difficulty with him. A real woman is not complex enough, he has to populate his operas with these grotesque pseudo-mythical figures?   

The people and their stories in the medieval period weren't actual human beings? Do you believe, like Harold Bloom, that the human was invented by Shakespeare?   Are not Senta (who, "according to Wagner, should be seen as a wholly robust Nordic girl"), Elsa, Elisabeth, Eva, Isolde, Sieglinde, Guntrune and post-immortal Brünnhilde real women? with real human flaws and virtues, real human concerns and problems? Even the goddess Fricka is mainly concerned with traditional family values.

Sarge



 

[jlaurson]

This strikes me as sophistry. Lohengrin and Parsifal do not form a "series". Condwiramurs is not a figure in Parsifal but in Wolfram's Parzifal, where she is the mother of Loherangrin and Kardeiz. Kondwiramur is a not a figure mentioned in Wagner's Lohengrin. That is a fact. "Vom Gral ward ich zu euch daher gesandt: mein Vater Parzival trägt seine Krone,sein Ritter ich - bin Lohengrin genannt."  But in Wagner's Parsifal there are no women in Montsalvat, as all the knights of the Grail are celibate. Parsifal as a work of art is not a sequel to and has nothing to do withLohengrin.

This started with "That makes it sound as though it's just sex with Kundry which he flees from. I suspect he's fleeing from sex with any woman." Where you come in, with your semi-educated chirpings, I don't know. But apart from the fact that Kondwiramur is mentioned in Wagner's writings and sketches (though not in the libretto), the argument is not that Parsial is a perfect prequel to Lohengrin but that Parsifal doesn't run away from sex with women as such. Twat.

[mjwal]

This started with "That makes it sound as though it's just sex with Kundry which he flees from. I suspect he's fleeing from sex with any woman." Where you come in, with your semi-educated chirpings, I don't know. But apart from the fact that Kondwiramur is mentioned in Wagner's writings and sketches (though not in the libretto), the argument is not that Parsial is a perfect prequel to Lohengrin but that Parsifal doesn't run away from sex with women as such. Twat.

Hahaha, insult is the last resort of the authoritarian mind. I have said nothing about Parsifal running away from women as such. It's worth considering, though - your contorted logic makes one suspect that you have over-invested in your denial. Is the libretto as it stands not the basis for discussion? if Wagner omitted the name in the libretto, he doubtless had a reason for doing that. Confusing the genealogy of the art-work with the work itself is always a bad sign. Tweet tweet.

[Scarpia]

The people and their stories in the medieval period weren't actual human beings? Do you believe, like Harold Bloom, that the human was invented by Shakespeare?   Are not Senta (who, "according to Wagner, should be seen as a wholly robust Nordic girl"), Elsa, Elisabeth, Eva, Isolde, Sieglinde, Guntrune and post-immortal Brünnhilde real women? with real human flaws and virtues, real human concerns and problems? Even the goddess Fricka is mainly concerned with traditional family values.

You live close to the Rhine, do you ever see the Rhinemaidens frolicking around under the water?

[Sergeant Rock]

You live close to the Rhine, do you ever see the Rhinemaidens frolicking around under the water?

Yes, and they are entirely nude. I love this country 

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

Yes, and they are entirely nude. I love this country 

Sarge

LOL... 

[mjwal]

if you don't care to read the ongoing thread of a discussion or don't bother to inform yourself what post might be answers to specific questions, then it isn't very surprising that your contributions are of little value.

How do you come to make these assumptions? I read the thread. I picked up on a point that arose from it. Only authoritarians believe they can dictate the way a discussion might develop.
If I were disposed to question the writing preparations made by you before sending your comment at 6:29, then I might be offended in several ways by the deleted word that appears in ghostly form after "women as such" in the quote I made of it at 6:47. But I will just write it off as the sulky outburst of a person who has been bested in argument.

[Mandryka]

He most likely has a sudden revelation of all those places those lips have been in the last 900 years. Now that's a thought fit to bring even the surest seducer to a pale. [In her former incarnations she must have f-ed half of antiquity.]

Are you saying that when he kisses her in Act 2 he thinks "oh --I bet  she's slept around. I don't fancy that!" ?

So what happens in  Act 2 which transforms him into the redeemer in Act 3?

[Mirror Image]

Bought these Wagner opera sets tonight:

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[asin]B00006469T[/asin]

[kishnevi]

One interesting and may be relevant thing is what happens at the end. I think Parsifal normally abandons Kundry -- she isn't allowed to be touched by the magic of the revealed grail. I believe in his last Beyreuth performance Knappertsbusch insisted on changing the stage directions: Parsifal led Kundry right up to the shrine as he sang his final lines.

As I read the libretto, it sounds to me as if Parsifal doesn't abandon her--she dies, in a sort of ecstasy, at the end as the Grail is revealed to the assembly of knights, and her visual focus as she dies (and in fact, for much of Act III) is on Parsifal.  If anyone is abandoning anyone, it's Kundry abandoning the earthly life at long last.   She doesn't need the Grail itself, and her service to the knights was part of her penance-- but now her punishment is through, and she is redeemed by Parsifal (symbolized by him baptising her at the end of Act III Scene 1).   If you want to say it in  a phrase, for Kundry Parsifal is the Grail.

[GanChan]

Bought these Wagner opera sets tonight:

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[asin]B00006469T[/asin]

"Um, Mr. Domingo, you have a bird growing out of your head..."

I own and like the Bohm, though I do get a bit tired of the ceaseless Nilsson-Windgassen pairings that seem to monopolize my Wagner shelf.

[Mandryka]

As I read the libretto, it sounds to me as if Parsifal doesn't abandon her--she dies, in a sort of ecstasy, at the end as the Grail is revealed to the assembly of knights, and her visual focus as she dies (and in fact, for much of Act III) is on Parsifal.  If anyone is abandoning anyone, it's Kundry abandoning the earthly life at long last.   She doesn't need the Grail itself, and her service to the knights was part of her penance-- but now her punishment is through, and she is redeemed by Parsifal (symbolized by him baptising her at the end of Act III Scene 1).   If you want to say it in  a phrase, for Kundry Parsifal is the Grail.

Yes -- you're right. My bad.

[kishnevi]

Yes -- you're right. My bad.

It's okay.  Your idea of a brothel for Act II and a commune for aging hippies in Act III sound pretty good to me.

[knight66]

"Um, Mr. Domingo, you have a bird growing out of your head..."

I own and like the Bohm, though I do get a bit tired of the ceaseless Nilsson-Windgassen pairings that seem to monopolize my Wagner shelf.

I have both of these. The Tristan is a classic set and very well thought of. I like it, but never have got on with Windgassen. I did get rid of the Solti; then regretted it and got hold of it again. The voices are not quite right; but I do enjoy it.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

Hi Mike
I don't care too much for Windgassen either. In short, I'd say I respect his musicianship but never get real excitement from him. His was a voice closer to Loge or even Mime than to a real Heldentenor. In fact if you compare him to Paul Kuen in the Krauss "Siegfried" you won't fail to perceive Kuen's voice had more ping to it. Still, I respect enormously a lyric tenor who could sing the final duet and never strain or push the tone. Unfortunately, in 1966 his decline was accentuated by Nilsson's seemingly inexhaustible ringing tones. Im the Second Act I have always thought of an old Tristan wooing Isolde.

As for the "Lohengrin", I feel it was late for Domingo.

[jlaurson]

.... I did get rid of the Solti; then regretted it and got hold of it again. The voices are not quite right; but I do enjoy it.

That's roughly how I feel about the Solti, too. Domingo's 'German' is very Domingoesque, for one... but I suppose you could just figure that he's a chap from far, far away and legitimately has an accent. (No wonder Ortrud is suspicious.)
Though my reason for re-acquiring it, had I ever given it away in the first place, would have been that it's one of the very few uncut Lohengrins on record*. One is spared nothing from the third act...

(* The other one being Barenboim's Lohengrin, methinks... but that's one Barenboim Wagner I don't actually have.)

[marvinbrown]

Tomorrow morning at 9:30, Building A Library on Radio 3 will be seeking out the best Tristan und Isolde. Wonder which one will come out tops. Which recording would GMGers recommend? I've got Bohm's recording which I think will do me, although I sometimes have a hankering to hear the DG Kleiber.

EMI GREAT RECORDINGS OF THE CENTURY'S TRISTAN UND ISOLDE, CONDUCTOR: FURTWANGLER, ISOLDE: FLAGSTAD!  EVERY WAGNERIAN MUST HEAR THIS BEFORE THEY DIE!

 
  As far as I am concerned no woman on planet earth or any other planet defines the role of Isolde like Kristen Flagstad!   

[Mandryka]

Hi Mike
I don't care too much for Windgassen either. In short, I'd say I respect his musicianship but never get real excitement from him. His was a voice closer to Loge or even Mime than to a real Heldentenor. In fact if you compare him to Paul Kuen in the Krauss "Siegfried" you won't fail to perceive Kuen's voice had more ping to it. Still, I respect enormously a lyric tenor who could sing the final duet and never strain or push the tone. Unfortunately, in 1966 his decline was accentuated by Nilsson's seemingly inexhaustible ringing tones. Im the Second Act I have always thought of an old Tristan wooing Isolde.

As for the "Lohengrin", I feel it was late for Domingo.

Maybe but he's good in Gotterdammerung -- when he sings Brünnhilde! Heilige Braut! Wach auf! Öffne dein Auge! Wer verschloß dich wieder in Schlaf?

[Mandryka]

Anyone tried the Keilberth Gotterdammerung -- the one with Hotter as Gunther? I'm tempted to get it to hear him.

[asin]B001NB7XIW[/asin]