Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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Solitary Wanderer

Quote from: Manuel on July 30, 2007, 05:31:26 PM
SW, you may want to take a look at this http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm

Thanks for the link. I had a quick look and it looks very detailed. I will endeavour to spend some time with it later :)
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

marvinbrown

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on July 30, 2007, 01:29:58 PM


Last night it was Siegfried Act.1.


  Aahh....now this is the reason why I love Wagner so much.  Seigfried is easily my favorite of the 4 operas of the Ring Cycle.  Look out for the 3 question exchange between Mime and Wotan (disguised as the Wanderer) and of course the Sword (Notung) Forging Scene.  These two scenes I keep playing over and over and over again......  powerfull music indeed!!!


  marvin

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 12:34:11 AM

  Aahh....now this is the reason why I love Wagner so much.  Seigfried is easily my favorite of the 4 operas of the Ring Cycle.  Look out for the 3 question exchange between Mime and Wotan (disguised as the Wanderer) and of course the Sword (Notung) Forging Scene.  These two scenes I keep playing over and over and over again......  powerfull music indeed!!!


  marvin

You like that? Personally I think that is one of Wagner's least inspired creations. It is just not musicially very interesting and quite repeititive. It is already a very long Act and the forging makes it just about interminable. That, Amfortas miserables solo in Act III of Parsifal, and the Wotan/Bruenhilde exchange in Act II of Die Walkuere are some of my least favorite Wagner moments. I can't even listen to those anymore.

marvinbrown

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:20:11 AM
You like that? Personally I think that is one of Wagner's least inspired creations. It is just not musicially very interesting and quite repeititive. It is already a very long Act and the forging makes it just about interminable. That, Amfortas miserables solo in Act III of Parsifal, and the Wotan/Bruenhilde exchange in Act II of Die Walkuere are some of my least favorite Wagner moments. I can't even listen to those anymore.

  Oh dear...the sword forging scene has some really remarkable music PW.  Hmmm....well to each his own.  I am curious though PW what are your favorite scenes of the Ring? (Don't worry I love all of the Ring so I will not crticize your taste  ;) ...but I am curious what do you like?)

  marvin
  PS: By the way I agree that the Amfortas solo in Act III is not among my favorite Wagner moments.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 03:35:37 AM
  Oh dear...the sword forging scene has some really remarkable music PW.  Hmmm....well to each his own.  I am curious though PW what are your favorite scenes of the Ring? (Don't worry I love all of the Ring so I will not crticize your taste  ;) ...but I am curious what do you like?)

I like Rheingold, all of it, just great drama, fast and furious. I LOVE Act I of Die Walkuere, there is nothing remotely like it in all of opera, especially from Du bist der Lenz on. Of course the final 20 minute of so of Walkuere is truly remarkable also. Siegried I am not too high on, just too many dead spots. The entire first Act is relatively lackluster, not Wagner at his most inspired. It has a tired feel to it. Act III is truly amazing though. The entire Gotterdammerung is quite good although I can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.

marvinbrown

#145
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:53:33 AM
I like Rheingold, all of it, just great drama, fast and furious. I LOVE Act I of Die Walkuere, there is nothing remotely like it in all of opera, especially from Du bist der Lenz on. Of course the final 20 minute of so of Walkuere is truly remarkable also. Siegried I am not too high on, just too many dead spots. The entire first Act is relatively lackluster, not Wagner at his most inspired. It has a tired feel to it. Act III is truly amazing though. The entire Gotterdammerung is quite good although I can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.

  LOL...the three Norns do sound like endless chatter but I find rather interesting how they read about the past present and future as they are weaving the rope of destiny.  Rheingold is good throughout and consistent.  I think Die Walkure is also consistently good.  Gotterdammerung has some areas that are a bit drawn out, my least favorite scene is in ACT 1 the hall of the Gibichungs, as Hagen tries to persuade cunningly Gunther and Gutrune to take Brunnhilde and Siegfried as spouses respectively. I am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??

  marvin 

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 07:16:59 AM
  LOL...the three Norns do sound like endless chatter but I find rather interesting how they read about the past present and future as they are weaving the rope of destiny.  Rheingold is good throughout and consistent.  I think Die Walkure is also consistently good.  Gotterdammerung has some areas that are a bit drawn out, my least favorite scene is in ACT 1 the hall of the Gibichungs, as Hagen tries to persuade cunningly Gunther and Gutrune to take Brunnhilde and Siegfried as spouses respectively. I am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??

  marvin 

I suppose Alberich got washed away also. But he is a pretty damn good swimmer as shown in Rheingold so he is probably alive and well. Act I in the hall of Gibichung is actually not THAT long, probably 15 minutes or so before Siegfriend arrives but somehow it seems to last an hour. The Norn scene is totally useless. Is the opera not LONG enough without that scene?

PSmith08

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 07:16:59 AMI am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??

  marvin 

Various directors handle it differently in the theater. Harry Kupfer solved it very simply at Bayreuth: nothing happened to him. If you haven't seen that production, I won't spoil the specifics for you.

uffeviking

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 07:28:03 AM
The Norn scene is totally useless. Is the opera not LONG enough without that scene?

Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: uffeviking on July 31, 2007, 10:37:17 AM
Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.

Of course she doesn't have the answer, they are just three blabbering motormouths.

uffeviking

May I be to bold and recommend you get yourself this book:

http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-9780714836508-0

It would be of tremendous help for you to better understand Der Ring des Nibelungen.

PSmith08

Quote from: uffeviking on July 31, 2007, 10:37:17 AM
Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.

One-hundred-and-ten percent correct. Wagner is establishing an inexorability to the conclusion: The string of fate has broken, it is indeed the end of the Gods. If you read the text, you will see that Wotan has pretty much fouled every nest, including causing the end of Fate. He destroys der Welt-Esche and prepares the destruction of Walhall and the Gods. Not only do the Norns explain everything that came before, they lay the groundwork for everything that comes after.

The prelude is pretty much necessary for understanding that which comes after. Waltraute's monologue doesn't make as much sense without it, and the finale certainly doesn't work so well - why would Brünnhilde send Loge to Walhall? - without it. Lis was right: there is not a single throwaway note, word, or phrase in mature Wagner.

Anne

Isn't it at Siegfried Act 3 that Wagner, after taking time to write Die Meistersinger and Tristan und Isolde, resumes his writing of the Ring after a long absence?

I think some people agree that act 3 is better.  Maybe Wagner knew he needed a break and took it.

Solitary Wanderer



Watched Siegfried Act.2. last night.

Enjoying reading the various comments here.

I'll offer more thoughts once I've seen the whole thing. Bearing in mind that this is my first Ring experience and that I'm just over half way through. I'm liking all of it but at this stage Die Walkure Act.3. stands out. I liked Siegfried Act.2. more than Act.1. although I thought the Dragon/Fafner and the bickering between Alberich and Mime a little too cute.

Overall though very minor criticisms as I'm loving the whole thing; its mind-blowing :o
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

Anne

SW,

I am so glad that you are enjoying the Ring.

uffeviking

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:53:33 AM
II can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.

Sir, you are in dire need of reading more what Der Ring des Nibelungen is all about! Try this one:

http://www.allaboutopera.com/opera_resources.php?opera_ndx=336

Good Luck!  8)

PerfectWagnerite

#156
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 31, 2007, 12:16:08 PM
One-hundred-and-ten percent correct. Wagner is establishing an inexorability to the conclusion: The string of fate has broken, it is indeed the end of the Gods. If you read the text, you will see that Wotan has pretty much fouled every nest, including causing the end of Fate. He destroys der Welt-Esche and prepares the destruction of Walhall and the Gods. Not only do the Norns explain everything that came before, they lay the groundwork for everything that comes after.

The prelude is pretty much necessary for understanding that which comes after. Waltraute's monologue doesn't make as much sense without it, and the finale certainly doesn't work so well - why would Brünnhilde send Loge to Walhall? - without it. Lis was right: there is not a single throwaway note, word, or phrase in mature Wagner.

You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.

It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.

Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.

Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?

uffeviking

What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.

Haffner

Quote from: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 08:04:48 AM
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.





I wonder if Perfect Wagnerite had an inner demon that he attempted to expel with that post. If so, I hope now his obvius love-hate relationship with The Ring... is back at peace.

I guess I mean that I think PerfectWagnerite is in awe of The Ring ... just as much as anyone here. Maybe the music more...

Harry

Quote from: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 08:04:48 AM
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.

Well he did scare me away, I can tell you! ;D ;D ;D