Wagner's Valhalla

Started by Greta, April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

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PerfectWagnerite

#160
Quote from: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 08:04:48 AM
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.

Derogatory remarks ? I LOVE the Ring, I have more recordings of it than I have fingers. There are parts of it that I am convinced Wagner was under divine guidance when he wrote it. All that doesn't answer the question: what the heck did Bruennhilde do for months or years alone on a rock? Do I have to worship each and every note that he wrote and ignore some of the obvious inconsistences and nonsensible plots?

m_gigena

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 07:44:57 AM
You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.

It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.

Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.

Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?

You don't make any sense. Why don't you sell your Wagner recordings at Ebay and use the income to purchase the awful movie "The Ring of the Nibelung"? I think it's more at your level. You may even like it.


PSmith08

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 07:44:57 AM
You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.

It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.

Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.

Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 08:24:15 AM
Derogatory remarks ? I LOVE the Ring, I have more recordings of it than I have fingers. There are parts of it that I am convinced Wagner was under divine guidance when he wrote it. All that doesn't answer the question: what the heck did Bruennhilde do for months or years alone on a rock? Do I have to worship each and every note that he wrote and ignore some of the obvious inconsistences and nonsensible plots?

Why does it matter? Really. Why? Would knowing what Brünnhilde did for the "months or years" you posit she spent alone on the rock help the story along? Would it make the drama better? Worse? I have a secret for you: Richard Wagner is the boss when you're watching or listening to Der Ring des Nibelungen. That man - one man - created a world in his mind, in a poem, in music, and - finally - in the theater. It's his world. If Richard Wagner did not think it necessary to give us a blow-by-blow account of the lives of the main characters, then it probably was and is not necessary. Such speculation and worrying has no place in his world. You might want such knowledge, but you're only a visitor. Wagner's dramatic instincts, especially in the mature works, are so finely-tuned (perfect, I daresay) that he knew what was best and necessary. He discarded the rest. Wagner's sense of drama was so perfect that his mistakes turned out to be great things. Siegfried is supposed to be the tragic hero of Der Ring, but Wotan enters that role and marches into not only Walhall but the pantheon of great tragic heroes (Oedipus, Prometheus, Orestes, et al.) Siegfried becomes a bit of a simpleminded clod, and Wotan becomes a perfect tragic hero. Some mistake!

I have another secret: Wagner is telling a story. One story. The biggest story ever conceived. He set it to some of the most beautiful, dramatic, and perfect music yet written. What Brünnhilde ate in the cave is not part of that story. You are looking at grains of sand, as Wagner is saying, "Look up here at a - no, the - cosmic drama." This attitude fulfills, in a perverse way, the conclusion to Harry Kupfer's Bayreuth Götterdämmerung - everyone (except for a couple of children and Alberich) is watching TV as the end of the gods happens. No-one notices, as they're all too busy with their own thing. I say this sincerely: turn off the TV, stop trying to outguess the last universal creative genius of West (there have, do not worry, been specific creative genii since Wagner - just no one universal genius), and take the story for what it's worth.

You ask if you have to worship each and every note, despite his inconsistencies. Once you see that those "inconsistencies" are yours, not his, you will want to worship each and every note he wrote - insofar as your religious tradition will allow.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Manuel on August 01, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
You don't make any sense. Why don't you sell your Wagner recordings at Ebay and use the income to purchase the awful movie "The Ring of the Nibelung"? I think it's more at your level. You may even like it.



Ebay, no way. When I die all my CDs will go to the local library so many more people can enjoy them.

uffeviking

Quote from: Harry on August 01, 2007, 08:22:20 AM
Well he did scare me away, I can tell you! ;D ;D ;D

Please, Sir, don't let him do that! PerfectWagnerite is posting his inane, immature and immaterial questions to cover up his total lack of understanding of even one solitary moment of this masterpiece under discussion.  :)

Solitary Wanderer

Last night watched:



Siegfried Act.3.
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

m_gigena

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 11:46:22 AM
Ebay, no way. When I die all my CDs will go to the local library so many more people can enjoy them.

Then, as you don't seem to be able to reach the Ring's plot you can either:

  • Die right now,
  • Give your recordings away while you are still alive to someone who will appreciate them better.

Solitary Wanderer

Quote from: Anne on July 31, 2007, 01:47:04 PM
SW,

I am so glad that you are enjoying the Ring.

Yes Anne :)

It really is an amazing work of art and I'm already looking forward to viewing it from the begining again.

The good news thats theres 6 more Wagner operas waiting for me to discover them :)
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

PSmith08

Quote from: Manuel on August 01, 2007, 02:01:40 PM
Then, as you don't seem to be able to reach the Ring's plot you can either:

  • Die right now,
  • Give your recordings away while you are still alive to someone who will appreciate them better.

Eh. He could always keep them, let Wagner do his thing, and appreciate Der Ring des Nibelungen on Wagner's own terms.

I like that solution the best.

m_gigena

Quote from: PSmith08 on August 01, 2007, 02:24:08 PM
Eh. He could always keep them, let Wagner do his thing, and appreciate Der Ring des Nibelungen on Wagner's own terms.

I like that solution the best.

I think I should have added one of those funny emoticons to make my post appear humorous.


Here it goes...




:)





Done.

marvinbrown

Quote from: PSmith08 on August 01, 2007, 11:23:37 AM
Why does it matter? Really. Why? Would knowing what Brünnhilde did for the "months or years" you posit she spent alone on the rock help the story along? Would it make the drama better? Worse? I have a secret for you: Richard Wagner is the boss when you're watching or listening to Der Ring des Nibelungen. That man - one man - created a world in his mind, in a poem, in music, and - finally - in the theater. It's his world. If Richard Wagner did not think it necessary to give us a blow-by-blow account of the lives of the main characters, then it probably was and is not necessary. Such speculation and worrying has no place in his world. You might want such knowledge, but you're only a visitor. Wagner's dramatic instincts, especially in the mature works, are so finely-tuned (perfect, I daresay) that he knew what was best and necessary. He discarded the rest. Wagner's sense of drama was so perfect that his mistakes turned out to be great things. Siegfried is supposed to be the tragic hero of Der Ring, but Wotan enters that role and marches into not only Walhall but the pantheon of great tragic heroes (Oedipus, Prometheus, Orestes, et al.) Siegfried becomes a bit of a simpleminded clod, and Wotan becomes a perfect tragic hero. Some mistake!

I have another secret: Wagner is telling a story. One story. The biggest story ever conceived. He set it to some of the most beautiful, dramatic, and perfect music yet written. What Brünnhilde ate in the cave is not part of that story. You are looking at grains of sand, as Wagner is saying, "Look up here at a - no, the - cosmic drama." This attitude fulfills, in a perverse way, the conclusion to Harry Kupfer's Bayreuth Götterdämmerung - everyone (except for a couple of children and Alberich) is watching TV as the end of the gods happens. No-one notices, as they're all too busy with their own thing. I say this sincerely: turn off the TV, stop trying to outguess the last universal creative genius of West (there have, do not worry, been specific creative genii since Wagner - just no one universal genius), and take the story for what it's worth.

You ask if you have to worship each and every note, despite his inconsistencies. Once you see that those "inconsistencies" are yours, not his, you will want to worship each and every note he wrote - insofar as your religious tradition will allow.

  PerfectWagnerite I have to agree with PSmith08 on this one.  It is irrelevant how long Brunhilde spent on that rock.  This is a work of fiction, time has no meaning.  I doubt if it was Wagner intention for his operas to be micro-analyzed this way.  I usually try to avoid over-analyzing the plot of the Ring (although I was curious as to Alberich's fate and Lis was kind enough to point me in the right direction)- try to take the plot of the Ring with a grain of salt so to speak  ;), you will enjoy it a lot more!!!

  marvin

Solitary Wanderer



Watched Twilight of the Gods Prelude & Act.1. [1st half] last night.
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

bhodges

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:33:00 PM


Watched Twilight of the Gods Prelude & Act.1. [1st half] last night.

You're in the home stretch!  Hope you have something suitable to celebrate at the end.

--Bruce

Solitary Wanderer

Quote from: bhodges on August 02, 2007, 01:40:50 PM
You're in the home stretch!  Hope you have something suitable to celebrate at the end.

--Bruce

Yes, it will feel like an achievement :)

I'm enjoying it more and more as I go along.

I'm looking forward to discovering his other music dramas.

Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.

I'm a true believer now ;)
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

bhodges

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:51:14 PM
Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.

Absolutely!  This is why I get impatient with some opera productions, in which the singing has been given a disproportionate amount of attention, while other elements have been neglected.  (If I want to go to a concert - i.e., no visuals - then I'll go to one.)  But when the music, sets, costumes, lighting and direction all work together it's magic.

--Bruce

Solitary Wanderer

Quote from: bhodges on August 02, 2007, 01:56:40 PM
Absolutely!  This is why I get impatient with some opera productions, in which the singing has been given a disproportionate amount of attention, while other elements have been neglected.  (If I want to go to a concert - i.e., no visuals - then I'll go to one.)  But when the music, sets, costumes, lighting and direction all work together it's magic.

--Bruce

Yes, magical is a good word to use. The sets, costumes and drama just add to the wonderful singing and music.

Its really quite a sublime experience 0:)
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

m_gigena

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:51:14 PM
Yes, it will feel like an achievement :)

I'm enjoying it more and more as I go along.

I'm looking forward to discovering his other music dramas.

Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.

I'm a true believer now ;)

I compiled the information from the whole website I posted a few days ago in a PDF file (I had it printed and now looks like a book; one of the problem of living in the third world is that real books about The Ring are not available here). @SW, if you are interested I can send you the file.

uffeviking

One more Götterdämmerung! I spent this afternoon watching a DVD of the 1997 production at Bayreuth, conducted by James Levine. It's the one directed by Alfred Kirchner who, together with his costume designer - whose name unfortunately I have not been able yet to discover! - shocked me seeing the most unusual, truly fantastic - as in Fantasy! - costumes. So often I hear and read the word Eurotrash - an American invention, BTW. - but I immediately discarded this classification. The Ring is a play, an opera, ergo clothing all the actors in creative and unusual costumes fits perfectly. I rather have them wearing pure fertile mind creations than an ordinary business suit.

This short video gives you a glimpse of what I am talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM30aq3nWT8

Solitary Wanderer



Watched Twilight of the Gods Act.1. 2nd half last night.

Its a powerful moment when 'Gunther' takes off the tarnhelm to reveal Siegfried.
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

marvinbrown

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 03, 2007, 01:52:59 PM


Watched Twilight of the Gods Act.1. 2nd half last night.

Its a powerful moment when 'Gunther' takes off the tarnhelm to reveal Siegfried.

  Wait 'till you get to the end of Twilight of the Gods (Gotterdammerung)  ;) !

  marvin