Thoughts on Asians, Koreans and cross legged restaurants

[Sean]

Here in Korea the staff go out every week or so to restaurants and I'm always invited, though I while back I told them I wasn't going on a regular basis any longer, partly because of the seating arrangement: Koreans sit cross legged on the floor to eat, using tables about 30cm high.

They're able to tuck their legs under them flat on the floor so their weight is forward, whereas for a typical Caucasion like me, I can just about sit with my legs straight under the table or maybe to oneside for a few minutes, but it's extremely uncomfortable and irritating, like doing sit-ups for a hour and you get indigestion because the trunk is leaning in the wrong direction.

Seeing a large group of adults sitting on the floor lined up at a dining table just like obedient six year-olds is a real sight, and it's bad aesthetics, something wrong with what they're doing. Asians typically can sit cross legged, but usually understand that the floor is an unclean area and that feet and socks are a lower status part of the body often not smelling good, and have the sense to use tables and chairs for dining. The Korean practice however fits with their whole somewhat smelly and messy environment, and I still find the whole thing pathetic, childish and bizarre. I'm really not trying to rant or be spiteful here, just to describe my impressions as dispassionately as I can.

I remember being in Asia the first time and being surprised to see people finding it comfortable to crouch down to relax and talk, but Koreans take this a step further and I haven't seen any other countries using the floor as routinely as they do.

Koreans have particularly short and almost dislocated floppy thigh bones and all of them as far as I can see can sit happily in the lotus position with ankles over the opposite knees- in fact they'd rather do this than use tables and chairs, and indeed if given a chair will often simply sit on it in the cross legged position. There's also a waddling effect in their walking.

Even after a year of being here and expressing my difficulties with this thing, my manageress is still unmoveably of the private opinion that I only have to practice to be able to sit in the way they can, with their knees and hips all over the place, and remains irritated I don't do it, as though it's just a matter of personal effort. If I sat as they do I'd smash all my joints and would never walk again, but she won't hear of this.

Someone who can't sit cross legged is something new to them, if not completely incomprehensible, and often they just don't understand- most people anywhere of course aren't aware of how culturally situated their outlook is and how different things can be elsewhere, and indeed that the differences can become less than tolerable when they cause physical problems. Koreans have no idea Caucasians never do this and will make jokes when seeing them not.

Further while it's okay to drink from a bowl for instance, it is considered rude to hold a dish in the air- even though to leave it on the table means to move the chopsticks through the air a long distance to you, since your legs mean you cannot get near the table or lean over it, and all this is of course lost on many of them, them taking you to be ill-mannered or whatever and increasing the stress and annoyance.

Moreover even in restaurants with table and chairs they're only children's size with your knees in the air and pressure on your feet and pelvis only as you try not to be pushed backwards, and again uncomfortable for eating being so squashed up: everything is difficult, while no one around understands there's any problem. (There's a similar situation with temperature, Caucasians having much lower tolerance to higher temperatures with again the locals never having met anyone like that and thinking you're very indignant to ask to open a window or such.)

[Bulldog]

Sounds like Korea is the wrong place for you.

[Sean]

A different culture isn't an easy thing and you tend to notice things that don't seem right. My experience is that most of the differences don't get any easier to deal with over time; also though I'm in a position here in a monolithic system where I have very little voice or means to express myself.

[Gurn Blanston]

A different culture isn't an easy thing and you tend to notice things that don't seem right. My experience is that most of the differences don't get any easier to deal with over time; also though I'm in a position here in a monolithic system where I have very little voice or means to express myself.

I am now totally at a loss about you, Sean. I thought from the beginning that I understood that you respected and wanted to discover more about cultures other than your own (which you claim to despise). And yet, when you are in such a situation, you come away as the ultimate judgmental asshole. The things about a different culture that make them different really aren't subject to your value judgments (...don't seem right etc.). You respect them for what they are and move on, not trying to compare them qualitatively to what you grew up with. They aren't dependent for their value on your value system. And really, comparing differences in their physiques which allow them to sit differently? Surely you realize that they have developed certain features because of how they sit, not vice-versa. Next, you'll be telling us that their vaginal openings are actually horizontal because their penises are flat...



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Listening to:
K 293a/301 Sonata in G for Fortepiano & Violin - Rivest / Breitman - K 293a 301 Sonata in G for Fortepiano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro con spirito

[Bulldog]

I am now totally at a loss about you, Sean. I thought from the beginning that I understood that you respected and wanted to discover more about cultures other than your own (which you claim to despise). And yet, when you are in such a situation, you come away as the ultimate judgmental asshole. The things about a different culture that make them different really aren't subject to your value judgments (...don't seem right etc.). You respect them for what they are and move on, not trying to compare them qualitatively to what you grew up with. They aren't dependent for their value on your value system. And really, comparing differences in their physiques which allow them to sit differently? Surely you realize that they have developed certain features because of how they sit, not vice-versa. Next, you'll be telling us that their vaginal openings are actually horizontal because their penises are flat...

Horizontal?  I gotta see some of that.

[Gurn Blanston]

Horizontal?  I gotta see some of that.

It's an old myth, Don, certainly far older than you or I...



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Listening to:
Rivest / Breitman - K 293b/302 Sonata in Eb for Fortepiano & Violin 2nd mvmt - Rondeau: [Andante grazioso]

[greg]

It's an old myth, Don, certainly far older than you or I...



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Listening to:
Rivest / Breitman - K 293b/302 Sonata in Eb for Fortepiano & Violin 2nd mvmt - Rondeau: [Andante grazioso]

From before the Vietnam War, you mean?

[Brian]

Next, you'll be telling us that their vaginal openings are actually horizontal because their penises are flat...

If this were true, I can think of no other person I'd rather learn it from than our dear Sean.

[Sean]

Gurn

I am now totally at a loss about you, Sean. I thought from the beginning that I understood that you respected and wanted to discover more about cultures other than your own (which you claim to despise). And yet, when you are in such a situation, you come away as the ultimate judgmental asshole.

One of the difficulties with a newly modernized country is the incongruity- some things are developed but alongside them they do a lot of things that clash. The restaurants thing isn't a particularly good example, but Korea is basically trying to Westernize and yet still with things widly at odds with Western practices. India for example is filthy and dangerous but it's less of a problem psychologically because it's more uniformly undeveloped.

The things about a different culture that make them different really aren't subject to your value judgments (...don't seem right etc.).

Can't agree with that.

And really, comparing differences in their physiques which allow them to sit differently? Surely you realize that they have developed certain features because of how they sit, not vice-versa.

Is that a serious comment? Of course different ethnic groups have different physiological characteristics.

[Sydney Grew]

The great thing about Korea is that its youths are handsomer by far than Japan's. Their slanty eyes in particular can be expressive of so much. . . .

We did however during our own sojourn in Seoul some time ago now experience one or two difficulties of our own in restaurants. The first was when squatting at one of those low tables described by Sean - it was set upon a simple dirt floor - we exerted rather too much pressure on a chopstick which went flying onto a neighbouring table and then onto the ground at some yards' remove. We are sure every one was shocked at our uncouth behaviour but they were very kind and at once politely brought a clean set of chopsticks.

The second experience was in a western-style restaurant in which we ordered the three-course special luncheon. The soup arrived and was consumed, but next came the dessert! It took about fifteen minutes and a lot of gesturing before we could convey that the main course was wanting. And when it did come the vegetable part of it consisted of exactly four green peas!

Koreans can be rather argumentative though; we think it is probably an effect of their frigid climate. And once when we attempted to cross the street through slow-moving traffic we are sure a driver tried to run us down simply because we were foreign, which would never happen in Britain would it.

[Sean]

Syd, how you doing?

The great thing about Korea is that its youths are handsomer by far than Japan's.

No, they're not. Most are plain as paper.

...we exerted rather too much pressure on a chopstick which went flying onto a neighbouring table and then onto the ground at some yards' remove.

That's the sort of thing that happens to Westerners...

The second experience was in a western-style restaurant in which we ordered the three-course special luncheon. The soup arrived and was consumed, but next came the dessert!

Koreans don't usually do deserts- they have no concept at all of finish or sweetness, or beauty. When you're sated and sick of the main course, they bring out another one, or take orders for what kind of noodles and gravy you want, in cheap plastic bowls.

Koreans can be rather argumentative though; we think it is probably an effect of their frigid climate.

That's kind. More likely they're a bunch of total psychos and I don't want to be around when they start fighting again, anytime soon.

The driving here is complete rubbish and the roads have some of the worst safety records in the world: partly it's the anger and unsettled edge to Korean personality, and partly the fact that none of them are drivers- no where near Western standards and make basic mistakes including not even knowing where to hold the wheel or whether to leave it in gear or not while they're driving at speed round corners. There is no concept of a road user and crossings favour the traffic not the pedestrian...

[Sean]

This is a short vid from N.Korea but the same pomposity and balderdash comes across. Don't miss the bit after 0.35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sYR43hSdYw&feature=related

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've always wanted to visit North Korea, in order to experience the (supposed) last outpost of pure Stalinism on earth.

[71 dB]

I like South-Korea. Never been there but they make awesome movies.  0:)

India for example is filthy and dangerous but it's less of a problem psychologically because it's more uniformly undeveloped.

   

I'm afraid your opinions are filthy and dangerous but it's less of a problem psychologically because they are uniformaly insane...

[drogulus]

I am now totally at a loss about you, Sean. I thought from the beginning that I understood that you respected and wanted to discover more about cultures other than your own (which you claim to despise). And yet, when you are in such a situation, you come away as the ultimate judgmental asshole. The things about a different culture that make them different really aren't subject to your value judgments (...don't seem right etc.). You respect them for what they are and move on, not trying to compare them qualitatively to what you grew up with. They aren't dependent for their value on your value system. And really, comparing differences in their physiques which allow them to sit differently? Surely you realize that they have developed certain features because of how they sit, not vice-versa. Next, you'll be telling us that their vaginal openings are actually horizontal because their penises are flat...



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Listening to:
K 293a/301 Sonata in G for Fortepiano & Violin - Rivest / Breitman - K 293a 301 Sonata in G for Fortepiano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro con spirito

     Why would understanding a culture make it impossible to have an opinion about its merits? That would be like saying you need to be an American citizen to be critical of U.S. policy. The question of the wisdom or level of understanding one has is a bit different. Maybe Sean understands Korean culture very well and can draw on a long history of Korean self-criticism to back him up. Or maybe the Koreans are shockingly un-self-critical and think crosslegged restaurants are a progressive development. Or, that may be as bad an idea as it looks and the uncomfortableness of such a restaurant is all you need to convict the Koreans of cultural backwardness. Seriously (I think), if relativity of values goes so far as to mean shut up and take it then what would give the Koreans themselves the right to get rid of these awful habits? 

[Sean]

Another chunk of my little file of observations. The small glasses visible in the photo are for this drink called soju...

Soju seems to be rough gin type stuff cheaply produced and full of impurities, smelling like alcohol based cleaning agent: you simply get a hangover with any amount you drink. For all alcoholic drinks there's an effete pouring ritual you have to observe where you must pour first into someone else's glass then they pour for you- you're supposed to use two hands for pouring and holding, or hold your one arm with the other hand or something, and sometimes share the same tiny glass. So you can't just pour your own drink when you want to- and it's a big deal, them getting uptight if you just pour your beer for yourself.

The beer here is also insipid and dodgy, and the local wine is likewise poisenous but the supermarket shelves are mostly full of the local beer plus soju. Giving and receiving should properly be with two hands in Korea, contrasting with the West where this can be seem stooping or overbearing; in some countries it should be with the right hand.

It seems to be a way of dealing with alcohol's Dionysian intoxication in stiffily and naively, boringly conservative Apollonian society; the ritual however is also another communal practice, bringing others into an activity and denying individual responsibility. Alcohol also tends to be served with food- but none of this stops people getting drunk, and there seems to be little further opprobrium towards that.

The ritual invokes peer pressure to control at least your rate of consumption because you have to get someone else to pour for you, and others are supposed just to notice when your glass is empty and fill it for you. It all fits in with the unbalanced endlessness and continuity here, everyone getting drunk together, and it's greatly annoying to think that I'm being taken as someone who can't drink responsibly or act correctly under my own volition: saying you have a a couple beers alone in the evening for instance alone brings grave looking at the floor, head-shaking and murmuring to themselves.

In fact the automatic insistence on this palaver by even a few people in a private setting away from any external authority only shows how far most people anywhere are governed by norms and not personal evaluation: without the West's norms of openness and individuality you're left with the stark lunacy of the mindless masses in all their baseless rationality. Politely asking them why they do this pouring thing or sit on the floor as they do, the reply is that it's traditional, the next unasked question being 'why do you care about tradition when it's as bizarre as this?' with the answer there just being that most people uncritically follow cultural norms- but which here are more explicit and outward, contrasting with the West's normalization of a greater level of personal evaluation, giving more space for the independent mind to operate.

But then they never stop intermittantly pouring, taking offence if you then politely refuse, for example asking 'Do you hate me?', so with the peer pressure from the ritualization people end up drinking more than they would if they just did what they wanted, all as they never stop serving main courses- there are no desserts or sense of finish. There is endlessness, uniformity and conformity, and goodness knows what it's like here for those with any kind of individual mind who doesn't take to being programmed like an automaton worker bee in a hive.

There's value in uniformity and given structures but needless to say they have to be of the right kind: the result of taking fixed ideas in China-Korea as fundamental allows the masses' psychosis to become the official culture, untempered by the insights of the few. The West's achievement is instead to take or normalize individuality, the trick then being that to some extent difference is regular ; unfortunately its democratic base also means that the masses are in effective control, in fact more in control, and likewise and ultimately more effectively crush anything that goes beyond the system's particular arbitrary characteristics.

[Gurn Blanston]

     Why would understanding a culture make it impossible to have an opinion about its merits? That would be like saying you need to be an American citizen to be critical of U.S. policy. The question of the wisdom or level of understanding one has is a bit different. Maybe Sean understands Korean culture very well and can draw on a long history of Korean self-criticism to back him up. Or maybe the Koreans are shockingly un-self-critical and think crosslegged restaurants are a progressive development. Or, that may be as bad an idea as it looks and the uncomfortableness of such a restaurant is all you need to convict the Koreans of cultural backwardness. Seriously (I think), if relativity of values goes so far as to mean shut up and take it then what would give the Koreans themselves the right to get rid of these awful habits? 

Because cultures don't have comparative merits. The whole statement drips of "ours is better than theirs". No it isn't, it's just different. And as a visitor and a self-proclaimed researcher into cultures, he isn't really entitled to have an opinion about their comparative worth, vis-a-vis his own. I mean, what the hell: "American culture is far superior to British, because we don't eat kidney for breakfast. Only the most primitive of peoples would do such a thing... ".  And, for example, the "uncomfortableness (what the hell kind of word is that?) of such a restaurant...", well, just because it is unconfortable to him doesn't make it uncomfortable to them. If they thought it was uncomfortable, they would have changed it a thousand years ago. Obviously...   And "awful habits"? C'mon, Ernie, you're being either provocative and/or disingenuous.



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Listening to:
Méhul, Etienne - Complete Pianoforte Sonatas - Brigitte Haudebourg - Op 1 #1 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Andante

[Sean]

Gurn

Because cultures don't have comparative merits.

They do, even if it's hard to say just what value is in the wider senses. Cultures are only comparable in having internal consistency in making sense of the world for their members. Tibetan Vegetarian culture is better/ has more value than Aztec human sacrificial culture, for instance...

The whole statement drips of "ours is better than theirs". No it isn't, it's just different.

Sometimes theirs is better than ours too.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn

They do, even if it's hard to say just what value is in the wider senses. Cultures are only comparable in having internal consistency in making sense of the world for their members. Tibetan Vegetarian culture is better/ has more value than Aztec human sacrificial culture, for instance...

But we don't know that, we infer it and place value based on our own standards and mores. For the Aztecs, human sacrifice may have made a lot of sense, it lasted for <> 500 years, after all.

Sometimes theirs is better than ours too.

Only if it pleases you though. But "betterness" shouldn't have to do with the perception of the outsider, but rather with the benefit to the insider, whether physical or mental. And as a cultural observer, if you are open-minded, you will think of that first, and only lastly, if ever, would you consider your personal grading system, which is not germane.



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Listening to:
Brio Quartet - Haquinius Quartet #1 in a for Strings 3rd mvmt

[Sean]

Well you'll have to think what you will. Relativism is on shaky ground, and of course, as you're already beginning to show, it becomes morally objectionable.

Aesthetics is even harder to ground than ethics yet you're on this forum...