Schoenberg Problem

[Todd]

Neither of thase works were written using the 12 tone technique (which were equated with avant garde kak) AFAIK.

I know, and that was part of my point, as was exaggerating the intent of the original post.  (Pierrot, though, is radical in that it is freely atonal.)  I always find it amusing how some people respond to "radical" music, especially of the modern kind.  Whether it's dodecaphonic, or aleatoric, or freely atonal, or whatever – technique doesn't really matter, only the outcome.  Rautavaara has been mentioned in this thread already, and for good reason.  He writes some dodecaphonic music that doesn't sound like one might expect.  Likewise, when I see the phrase "avant garde" used in a negative context I'm somewhat amused.  Ligeti, well, he was avant garde (right?), yet almost everything I've heard from him is extraordinary.  I can't report the same for, say, Kagel.

One thing I guess I'd like to see defined is "kak."  What is it, and how does one know when one hears it?

[some guy]

My opinion, (for what it's worth), is that what Schoenberg came up with was going to happen anyway. Had it not been Schoenberg it would have been someone else. 

It was someone else, and his name was Josef Mattias Hauer. He came up with a method for composing with all twelve tones independently of Schoenberg and earlier besides.

[some guy]

As for me, I've decided to pretend the 20th century never happened.  0:)

Now there's a useful idea for a listener. Why, I think I'm going to pretend that the 19th century never happened.

[sul G]

...which would be fine, but then there would be no Schoenberg 

[snyprrr]

12 tone-ish independent of schoenberg:

Carl Ruggles
Hauer
Fartein Valen
Roslavets

any others?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I like Gould's Schoenberg, Berg & Webern recordings.

Is there one (or two) in particular you would like to recommend?  

Rautavaara has been mentioned in this thread already, and for good reason.  He writes some dodecaphonic music that doesn't sound like one might expect. 

I've heard a number of symphonies composed using serial technique - Rautavaara's 3rd, Rochberg's 2nd, a couple by Frankel - and what stands out to me is how relatively conservative they sound, almost romantic really. Nothing scary or "avant-garde" about them.

[snyprrr]

a reviewer of the str. qrts. on amazon said he went 12tone because of his lack of talent in coming up with memorable melodies.

now, i've had qrts. 3-4, the 12tone qrts., for a while, and i do find them...mmm...very well crafted...uh, let me get back to them later.

but i hadn't heard the qrt. in D (early), and the qrt. in Dminor op.7. keep in mind that it was in the 2nd qrt.(w/soprano) that he went atonal for the first time in the last movement (the first movement doesn't seem to present any problems).

well, the qrt. in D (1897?) sounded..huh!..."normal", i've heard Dvorakian, and i must admit it just sounds like a dvorak-ish qrt. the melody in the last movement d-e-f#-d-b-aa-b (is that right?) REALLY sounds like he ripped it off SOMEWHERE. anyone? but my point is, ME didn't really think there was anything to this qrt., and i can understand what the amazon reviewer was hinting at.

BUT THEN i heard the Dminor op.7 qrt., and WOW!!!  40ish minutes of jam packed, dense, tonal angst-y...movements echoing each other (though in a single movement structure)...just THEE melting pot string quartet. I LOVE THIS PIECE. i don't know if you can say, oh, that's obviously schoenberg, but i'm imaging it has some providence with the Busoni qrt No.2, and the Wolf qrt., both in Dminor, and from what i can gather (haven't heardthem yet), angst-y and so forth.

there is some half voice stuff at the end of the slow movement that really impressed me (which is then echoed in the finale). maybe if you want to get to the german roots, this might be the piece for you.

the qrt. no.2 (in 4 movements) then, starts of with a fairly normal first two movements, starts getting atonal in the third movement, and then in the last movement he for the first time does not use key sigs. but listen to the opening and you will see the "type" of music that this system engenders. i think 12tone works great for "misterioso" passages, it is good for those outre emotional states (within a tonal context).....stop.

then when we hit the 3rd qrt., he has arrived at full rigour (along with the massive wind quintet). i was surprised how similar qrts. 3-4 sound to each other. i call it the creepy marionette sound. still, to me, changing the "notes" while keeping the rythmn kind of traditional made no sense to me. and 4 movements? he said he studied mozart's qrts. for these, which i hear, but the notes of this new music demand a new form, no? kind of like the piano concerto has a kind of bizarre baroque feel to it (many critics prefer the violin cto, but i find this concerto a lot of fun).

so then, the string trio of 1949. single movement. and here, finally, everything seems perfectly intergrated. I LOVE THIS PIECE. the fantasy in his imagination finds a perfect marriage in this piece, for me at least. totally modern, not a hint of the vestiges of the past.

i felt like if i didn't find ONE piece by schoenberg that i liked, i wouldn't be "serious", but when i dug, i actually found a FEW pieces that i REALLY REALLY LIKE. though, maybe it was drudgery getting there.

ok, enough from me

[Guido]

Why don't you ever use capital letters?

[bhodges]

This might be a good time to mention an excellent little site called Themefinder.org, which has Berg, Schoenberg and Webern 12-tone rows used in various pieces.  The links are a little hard to find on the main page; they're listed under "new links."

Here are the Schoenberg listings, and here is the page with the links to all three composers.  (And PS, they make dandy ringtones for your cell phone. )

--Bruce

[Gurn Blanston]

Apologies to those of you who were enjoying a Schönberg discussion. It got thoroughly derailed by our resident troll. I have snipped off the offending member and binned it. As I will any resumption of this intellectually impoverished line of discussion.

GB

----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam - Hob 18:03 Concerto in F for Keyboard and Orchestra 1st mvmt - Allegro

[haydnguy]

I was just looking in the old forum for some information on Berg, and the thought crossed my mind that perhaps Berg may be a better entry way into the Second Viennese School than Schoenberg for the uninitiated. For instance, if someone like Mahler perhaps they should go straight to Berg and then to Schoenberg and Webern later. 

Thoughts??? 

[Lethevich]

Given that the VC has been recommended several times, what are his piano and cello concertos like?

In this arena I can strongly recommend his concerto for string quartet and orchestra, but it is a highly atypical work - a baroque hommage a lot like Schnittke is known for, but less scary sounding/"decomposed" It's tuneful shizzle, yo'.

Apologies to those of you who were enjoying a Schönberg discussion. It got thoroughly derailed by our resident troll. I have snipped off the offending member and binned it. As I will any resumption of this intellectually impoverished line of discussion.

Damnit, I missed the fun again.

[sul G]

Given that the VC has been recommended several times, what are his piano and cello concertos like?

The piano concerto is a great piece; the cello concerto too, but as it's a recomposition of a piece by Monn, it doesn't really 'count'.

In this arena I can strongly recommend his concerto for string quartet and orchestra, but it is a highly atypical work - a baroque hommage a lot like Schnittke is known for, but less scary sounding/"decomposed" It's tuneful shizzle, yo'.

Ditto this one, which is a recomposition of a Handel piece. Both these recompositions are wild, virtuoso fun, like his Brahms piano quartet orchestration but a whole lot more extreme - and they do show off an important side of Schoenberg's musical character - but they're not really in the main line of his works.

Damnit, I missed the fun again.

It wasn't much fun...

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I was just looking in the old forum for some information on Berg, and the thought crossed my mind that perhaps Berg may be a better entry way into the Second Viennese School than Schoenberg for the uninitiated. For instance, if someone like Mahler perhaps they should go straight to Berg and then to Schoenberg and Webern later. 

Thoughts??? 

I do believe that Berg is an easier composer to grasp than his two Schoolmates, at least if you are coming from a Late Romantic direction. Stuff like Three Orchestral Pieces is not much of a stretch for ears accustomed to late Mahler. The Violin Concerto, though technically a 12-tone piece, is fairly easy to follow and you can't miss its emotional charge.

[The new erato]

I've always found Webern the most approacable, due to his brevity, concentration of expression and clarity of orchestration. OTOH I've always found Berg quite difficult due to the nearly explosive, emotional content of many of his works. Just goes to show, I guess.

[snyprrr]

I promise to use more capitals

[sul G]

I thought the general lack of capitals in your posts, and the occasional use of FULLY-CAPITALISED WORDS, was an act of homage to Schoenberg's democratisation of the 12 semitones. All shall be equal and all that.... 

[snyprrr]

lack of capitals is just...if i'm being unkind, is just lazy of me. i know it makes things wearisome to read, so if i really DID have a point, someone may not even want to bother. arrgh-i've got blisters on my fingers!

btw- that wind band piece by Schoenberg is one of my favs.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Gurn:

I have snipped off

And you inadvertently (?) deleted mine and a couple others in the process... 

Guido:

Like I said, it baffles me that  Moses und Aron  gets such short shrift not just here but in every music site I've visited... It is in my book one of the most engrossing and 'longueur free' of all operas.

Solti, Mazura and Langridge are superb:

[sul G]

let's see:

Pelleas et Melisande
Tristan und Isolde
Moses und Aron

I spot a link.... I suspect, Eric, that you'd even like Terry and June if it was given the operatic treatment!

Still, I'm with you on all three. (Well, up to a point, anyway!)