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Started by Brian, March 12, 2009, 12:26:29 PM

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Brian

The British conductor George Smart, who was obsessed with how long performances took and kept a detailed diary of the length of everything he conducted, visited Beethoven in the late 1820s and asked how long the Ninth should go. Beethoven answered 45 minutes, though I suspect he was answering a stupid question with a stupid answer.  ;D Smart may have been a silly pedant, but he was also one of the leading Beethoven interpreters and advocates in the composer's lifetime and gave major UK premieres.

Even stripping out every repeat in the scherzo it's hard to imagine a tolerable performance clocking in under 54' (13/10/11/20).

Here is my post from the research trip I made to document Smart's work, including his tempo obsession. You will observe that his live Ninth in 1830ish took...64 minutes! (But his Pastoral a mind boggling 32...)
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12.msg503743.html#msg503743

Mandryka



Streaming in your neighbourhood now.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd



Can't remember if this showed up before.



But I know this has not.  I will promptly buy anything recorded by this dynamic duo.

No image yet, but the dynamic duo of Herbert Schuch and Gülru Ensari have a new disc coming out called In Search Of.  Will it be inspired by Proust or Spock?  No matter, it, too, shall be promptly snapped up.

Also, a new Chopin disc from Ivo Pogorelich is on the way.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

MusicTurner

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 03, 2021, 09:19:30 AM
Has anyone recorded a shorter Op. 125?

Some old, fast recordings are Scherchen/RTSI 62:28, Leibowitz 62:11, Toscanini 1939 and Walter 1947 61:57. I don't know about the repeats there.

Karl Henning

Quote from: MusicTurner on December 04, 2021, 08:55:08 AM
Some old, fast recordings are Scherchen/RTSI 62:28, Leibowitz 62:11, Toscanini 1939 and Walter 1947 61:57. I don't know about the repeats there.

Interesting, thanks.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

MusicTurner

#12866
Quote from: Brian on December 03, 2021, 02:11:14 PM
The British conductor George Smart, who was obsessed with how long performances took and kept a detailed diary of the length of everything he conducted, visited Beethoven in the late 1820s and asked how long the Ninth should go. Beethoven answered 45 minutes, though I suspect he was answering a stupid question with a stupid answer.  ;D Smart may have been a silly pedant, but he was also one of the leading Beethoven interpreters and advocates in the composer's lifetime and gave major UK premieres.

Even stripping out every repeat in the scherzo it's hard to imagine a tolerable performance clocking in under 54' (13/10/11/20).

Here is my post from the research trip I made to document Smart's work, including his tempo obsession. You will observe that his live Ninth in 1830ish took...64 minutes! (But his Pastoral a mind boggling 32...)
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12.msg503743.html#msg503743

That's interesting, thanks. The short duration in the Pastoral Symphony is indeed extremely short. Scherchen/RTSI is 34:35, most HIP stuff seems to be a little more than 40 minutes.

Mandryka

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

JBS

Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2021, 07:54:46 AM


Streaming in your neighbourhood now.

Presto is supposed to pop this in the mail to me Monday.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Artem



2CDs set

[Disc1]
John Cage
Sonatas and Interludes
for Prepared Piano (69 minutes)
Instrument used: New York Steinway Model B

[Disc2]
Morton Feldman
For Bunita Marcus
(75 min., live recording at Tokyo)
Instrument usued: FAZIOLI F278

https://www.hiroshiyokoyama.com/english/cd/

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Mandryka

Quote from: Artem on December 09, 2021, 12:56:53 PM


2CDs set

[Disc1]
John Cage
Sonatas and Interludes
for Prepared Piano (69 minutes)
Instrument used: New York Steinway Model B

[Disc2]
Morton Feldman
For Bunita Marcus
(75 min., live recording at Tokyo)
Instrument usued: FAZIOLI F278

https://www.hiroshiyokoyama.com/english/cd/

He already has a recording of the Feldman, which I intend to listen to tomorrow. But I'm most excited to find this -- on a little room sized organ by the sound of it, and really quite seductive playing.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

T. D.

#12873
Quote from: Artem on December 09, 2021, 12:56:53 PM


2CDs set

[Disc1]
John Cage
Sonatas and Interludes
for Prepared Piano (69 minutes)
Instrument used: New York Steinway Model B

[Disc2]
Morton Feldman
For Bunita Marcus
(75 min., live recording at Tokyo)
Instrument used: FAZIOLI F278

https://www.hiroshiyokoyama.com/english/cd/

Puzzled by the "Instrument used" stip for the Cage Sonatas and Interludes [emphasis added].  ???
I'd think the preparations would be at least as important as the piano make, see for instance http://www.seattlepianoteacher.com/a-performers-guide-to-the-sonatas-and-interludes-for-prepared-piano/

Re. Steinway, here's an excerpt from the above link:

On that same item, in Cage's 1949 document, he states that the preferred piano for the Sonatas and Interludes is a Steinway M.  I think Cage confused the models of Steinways here.  Perhaps he was poorly informed of the exact model he used or simply mixed up the models.  In the table from the score, Cage measures the damper to bridge on the 2nd 'b' above middle 'c' as 4 7/16″ and to "adjust accordingly".  That measurement is the exact distance on a Steinway O, not an M.  Despite the claim of the 1949 document, the preferred piano would seem to actually be a Steinway O.  Below are photos of this measurement on a Steinway M (4 1/8″) and O (4 7/16″), respectively.

Steinway M pic



Steinway O pic

If the performer is ultimately looking for a higher level of authenticity, I believe it is in the best interest of the performer to prepare a Steinway O and experience the sound of that particular instrument and get to know it well. While you can take his measurements and "adjust accordingly," for other pianos, a better approach for me was to train my ear to the Steinway O and adjust the different piano based on my recollection of that sound.  I am fortunate enough to own a Steinway O and have a good friend that owns a piano consignment store who was kind enough to let me prepare several pianos of various makes and models.  I also believe this method of experimentation is in the nature of the music and will produce more interesting results than trying to emulate the sound of a past recording.  Many recordings, some of the most ubiquitous ones, actually fall short of Cage's intentions in these preparations.  But more on that later.

Aside from training the ear to the sounds of the prepared Steinway O, it is also beneficial to be acquainted with its design that can effect the preparations.  I prepared a Knabe concert-grand for a recital in Seattle that provided a few challenges and knowing the Steinway O design helped to overcome them.  The second-lowest 'd' in the bass that is prepared with a screw wrapped in rubber was insufficient for the Knabe.  This particular piano had three strings for that note.  Cage only asks for a preparation between strings 1 and 2 as there are not even three strings to prepare for that note on a Steinway O.  Without knowing this, that third string would continue to ring and dramatically change the intended thud-like sound created by that note. I added an extra piece of rubber between strings 2 and 3 at the spot of the screw to eliminate the ringing of this 3rd string and effectively make the note sound as it did on the Steinway O.  Another problem this piano had was three extra dampers than the Steinway O.  Since I had two hours to prepare the piano for the live performance and the bolts securing the action to the piano were stripped, I had no way to pull the action and take out the dampers.  The preparations could not be positioned correctly because these three dampers were in the way.  So I did the best I could with the time I had.  But still, I would not be able to fully understand these problems that had arisen—or  even that there was a problem—if I didn't have experience preparing the Steinway O.

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Todd on December 11, 2021, 12:47:23 PM


I hold his first recordings of this music for EMI in high regard, and am anxiously awaiting this release.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Mirror Image

Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 11, 2021, 06:51:09 PM
I hold his first recordings of this music for EMI in high regard, and am anxiously awaiting this release.

Do you prefer Collard to Scott in the solo piano works?

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2021, 07:40:44 PM
Do you prefer Collard to Scott in the solo piano works?

Stott, Collard, Doyen, Hubeau, Heidsieck all have their unique approach to this music, and I couldn't say I prefer any over the others.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Mandryka

#12877
Quote from: T. D. on December 11, 2021, 01:54:52 PM
Puzzled by the "Instrument used" stip for the Cage Sonatas and Interludes [emphasis added].  ???
I'd think the preparations would be at least as important as the piano make, see for instance http://www.seattlepianoteacher.com/a-performers-guide-to-the-sonatas-and-interludes-for-prepared-piano/

Re. Steinway, here's an excerpt from the above link:

On that same item, in Cage's 1949 document, he states that the preferred piano for the Sonatas and Interludes is a Steinway M.  I think Cage confused the models of Steinways here.  Perhaps he was poorly informed of the exact model he used or simply mixed up the models.  In the table from the score, Cage measures the damper to bridge on the 2nd 'b' above middle 'c' as 4 7/16″ and to "adjust accordingly".  That measurement is the exact distance on a Steinway O, not an M.  Despite the claim of the 1949 document, the preferred piano would seem to actually be a Steinway O.  Below are photos of this measurement on a Steinway M (4 1/8″) and O (4 7/16″), respectively.

Steinway M pic



Steinway O pic

If the performer is ultimately looking for a higher level of authenticity, I believe it is in the best interest of the performer to prepare a Steinway O and experience the sound of that particular instrument and get to know it well. While you can take his measurements and "adjust accordingly," for other pianos, a better approach for me was to train my ear to the Steinway O and adjust the different piano based on my recollection of that sound.  I am fortunate enough to own a Steinway O and have a good friend that owns a piano consignment store who was kind enough to let me prepare several pianos of various makes and models.  I also believe this method of experimentation is in the nature of the music and will produce more interesting results than trying to emulate the sound of a past recording.  Many recordings, some of the most ubiquitous ones, actually fall short of Cage's intentions in these preparations.  But more on that later.

Aside from training the ear to the sounds of the prepared Steinway O, it is also beneficial to be acquainted with its design that can effect the preparations.  I prepared a Knabe concert-grand for a recital in Seattle that provided a few challenges and knowing the Steinway O design helped to overcome them.  The second-lowest 'd' in the bass that is prepared with a screw wrapped in rubber was insufficient for the Knabe.  This particular piano had three strings for that note.  Cage only asks for a preparation between strings 1 and 2 as there are not even three strings to prepare for that note on a Steinway O.  Without knowing this, that third string would continue to ring and dramatically change the intended thud-like sound created by that note. I added an extra piece of rubber between strings 2 and 3 at the spot of the screw to eliminate the ringing of this 3rd string and effectively make the note sound as it did on the Steinway O.  Another problem this piano had was three extra dampers than the Steinway O.  Since I had two hours to prepare the piano for the live performance and the bolts securing the action to the piano were stripped, I had no way to pull the action and take out the dampers.  The preparations could not be positioned correctly because these three dampers were in the way.  So I did the best I could with the time I had.  But still, I would not be able to fully understand these problems that had arisen—or  even that there was a problem—if I didn't have experience preparing the Steinway O.


I remember Joanna McGregor saying that one reason an authentic performance of these pieces is difficult is finding precisely the right nuts and bolts to shove into the piano.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 11, 2021, 08:04:57 PM
Stott, Collard, Doyen, Hubeau, Heidsieck all have their unique approach to this music, and I couldn't say I prefer any over the others.

I'm just trying to figure out when I go to rip Fauré's music to my computer, what I'm going to rip but I think I'll go with this set:


Spotted Horses

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2021, 08:38:31 PM
I'm just trying to figure out when I go to rip Fauré's music to my computer, what I'm going to rip but I think I'll go with this set:



Can't go far wrong with that set, I have strong positive associations with the Lodeon Cello Sonata and Dumay Violin Sonatas, as well as the Collard. The Piano Quartets and Quintets are also formidable, although I have other favorite recordings. But with Faure I find it essential to be exposed to different interpretations of the piano music, because the different impression created by different performers.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington