Author Topic: New Releases  (Read 2205757 times)

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Offline amw

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12420 on: October 16, 2021, 06:55:16 AM »
What I noticed is that Hough mentions how Chopin's preference for the Pleyel played such an import role in writing this music:

"There is significance too that his indications are generally faster than later norms (the much-loved Op 27 No 2 is a startling example). Chopin’s original tempi and long phrase markings encourage melodies to float in one breath across the bar lines; and his preferred Pleyel piano had a much faster decay of resonance than modern instruments, compelling the pianist to move on to the next note before the sound literally dies."

But of course, he doesn't use a Pleyel...   ::)
and he also ignores Chopin's original tempi if timings are any indication. Pianists often say these things but in the end they're always guided much more by the pianistic pedagogic tradition (& their preference for modern Steinways, Faziolis etc) than the actual intentions of the composers. It's very tiresome.

People often comment on how unnecessary it is that we have 500 recordings of the same piece, but what's always lost is that we have 500 incorrect recordings of the same piece that are all based on listening to each other rather than going back to the score. It's an endless circle-jerk.

(While I'm here and on my soapbox: listen to Tobias Koch's recording of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata)

Offline Brian

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12421 on: October 16, 2021, 07:36:34 AM »
(While I'm here and on my soapbox: listen to Tobias Koch's recording of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata)
While you're here, I'd be curious about your reaction to the sample clip on this page of Emma Boynet playing Schubert D. 899 No. 3 in the 1930s. To me it's breathtaking...I should just buy the darn discs.

EDIT: wow, Koch is an interesting guy...takes 3 minutes to play the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata, but takes 32 minutes to play the first movement of Schubert D. 960?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 07:38:41 AM by Brian »

Offline Todd

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12422 on: October 16, 2021, 07:50:28 AM »
To me it's breathtaking...I should just buy the darn discs.


Yes, you should - right now.  You shan't regret it.
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Offline milk

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12423 on: October 16, 2021, 08:01:34 AM »
What I noticed is that Hough mentions how Chopin's preference for the Pleyel played such an import role in writing this music:

"There is significance too that his indications are generally faster than later norms (the much-loved Op 27 No 2 is a startling example). Chopin’s original tempi and long phrase markings encourage melodies to float in one breath across the bar lines; and his preferred Pleyel piano had a much faster decay of resonance than modern instruments, compelling the pianist to move on to the next note before the sound literally dies."

But of course, he doesn't use a Pleyel...   ::)
Not like this:

Offline amw

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12424 on: October 16, 2021, 08:15:22 AM »
While you're here, I'd be curious about your reaction to the sample clip on this page of Emma Boynet playing Schubert D. 899 No. 3 in the 1930s. To me it's breathtaking...I should just buy the darn discs.
That sounds more or less right. The tempo is Andante (a moderate tempo) and the beat is the whole note; there are two beats to a bar (not four and definitely not eight). I think I probably play it a bit slower but I'm also not a professional pianist lol. (That set of recordings looks especially interesting for the Fauré; I might have to get it as well. There's a lot of world-class Fauré recordings from that era.)

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EDIT: wow, Koch is an interesting guy...takes 3 minutes to play the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata, but takes 32 minutes to play the first movement of Schubert D. 960?
Yes, that's the frustrating thing about him; one can never unreservedly recommend anything he records because he knows better than most what the music should sound like, but lets his personal taste [or in some cases technical limitations] run away with him. In this case, choosing a tempo for D960 that's exactly half of what it "should" be simply because of a modern interpretation of the 19th century belief in "heavenly lengths" (what people in the 21st century never remember is that in 1838 any continuous single movement over a quarter of an hour was already considered extremely long and taxing for audiences; a Bruckner symphony would have been unthinkable, until of course Bruckner did think it in the 1860s-1870s, and received the backlash. Today we have a much longer attention span and a very different way of looking at concerts.)

Online Mandryka

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12425 on: October 16, 2021, 08:17:01 AM »
.I should just buy the darn discs.


If (tempted to say iff) you’re interested in Fauré maybe.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 08:24:38 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12426 on: October 16, 2021, 08:21:06 AM »
That sounds more or less right. The tempo is Andante (a moderate tempo) and the beat is the whole note; there are two beats to a bar (not four and definitely not eight). I think I probably play it a bit slower but I'm also not a professional pianist lol. (That set of recordings looks especially interesting for the Fauré; I might have to get it as well. There's a lot of world-class Fauré recordings from that era.)


I’d be interested in what you have to say about Rudolph Serkin’s D958 on this CD



I vaguely remember there were some other rapid early Schubert things from Cassadesus. But that Serkin is astonishingly . . . something. Fast. The rmcr heavy thought it was just an artefact of the medium, no one in their right mind would play like that blah blah blah
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Offline amw

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12427 on: October 16, 2021, 09:02:49 AM »
I’d be interested in what you have to say about Rudolph Serkin’s D958 on this CD



I vaguely remember there were some other rapid early Schubert things from Cassadesus. But that Serkin is astonishingly . . . something. Fast. The rmcr heavy thought it was just an artefact of the medium, no one in their right mind would play like that blah blah blah

It's hard to judge from piano rolls. Serkin's first movement tempo is very fast by any standards. His last movement is fairly standard (just a few seconds shorter than Uchida or Katz for instance) and only sounds rushed probably as an artifact of the piano roll. In any case the main "issue" a listener might have is not the tempi but their invariance and metronomic nature, which I'm not sure Schubert would have approved of either. I will listen to the whole thing at some point, probably.

Offline amw

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12428 on: October 16, 2021, 09:06:51 AM »
anyway, an important new release for people of a certain persuasion



includes: The Oresteia, Mother Tongue, one scene from Yue Ling Jie (not sure why the whole thing isn't included but who knows), and The Navigators (first time on CD)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 09:10:36 AM by amw »

Online Que

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12429 on: October 16, 2021, 10:54:23 AM »
and he also ignores Chopin's original tempi if timings are any indication. Pianists often say these things but in the end they're always guided much more by the pianistic pedagogic tradition (& their preference for modern Steinways, Faziolis etc) than the actual intentions of the composers. It's very tiresome.

People often comment on how unnecessary it is that we have 500 recordings of the same piece, but what's always lost is that we have 500 incorrect recordings of the same piece that are all based on listening to each other rather than going back to the score. It's an endless circle-jerk.

(While I'm here and on my soapbox: listen to Tobias Koch's recording of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata)

I will, I quite like Koch's Schumann. :)

And I quite agree with your view.
We can't blame the Old School: the appropriate instruments weren't available and they didn't know any better.
They had their day with some amazing performances as a result. But now? What is is the point to try improve on Rubinstein or Moravec, in their old ways?

Online Mandryka

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12430 on: October 16, 2021, 11:09:36 AM »
I will, I quite like Koch's Schumann. :)


Yes by coincidence I listened to the Bunter Blatter a couple of weeks ago.
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Offline Artem

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12431 on: October 16, 2021, 01:12:21 PM »
A new recording, I believe.


Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12432 on: October 16, 2021, 01:49:36 PM »


I'm interested in how the Clevelanders do with the Prokofiev.
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Offline mabuse

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12433 on: October 16, 2021, 03:36:19 PM »


 :o Twenty years after his first recording !

Release is announced for November 26.

Offline Brian

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12434 on: October 16, 2021, 07:31:40 PM »
Yes, that's the frustrating thing about him; one can never unreservedly recommend anything he records because he knows better than most what the music should sound like, but lets his personal taste [or in some cases technical limitations] run away with him. In this case, choosing a tempo for D960 that's exactly half of what it "should" be simply because of a modern interpretation of the 19th century belief in "heavenly lengths" (what people in the 21st century never remember is that in 1838 any continuous single movement over a quarter of an hour was already considered extremely long and taxing for audiences; a Bruckner symphony would have been unthinkable, until of course Bruckner did think it in the 1860s-1870s, and received the backlash. Today we have a much longer attention span and a very different way of looking at concerts.)
Thanks so much for this. And it is funny to think of ourselves in this century having a longer attention span in any field - but of course true as things like symphonies and sonatas expanded so far beyond their original forms. I think the strong negative contemporary reaction to Schubert Symphony 8 by the would-be performers, having to survive strenuous 15 minute movements, should be persuasive to an artist like Koch trying to figure out what "heavenly length" meant. But hey, what do I know!

Offline Florestan

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12435 on: October 17, 2021, 12:40:02 AM »
Thanks so much for this. And it is funny to think of ourselves in this century having a longer attention span in any field - but of course true as things like symphonies and sonatas expanded so far beyond their original forms. I think the strong negative contemporary reaction to Schubert Symphony 8 by the would-be performers, having to survive strenuous 15 minute movements, should be persuasive to an artist like Koch trying to figure out what "heavenly length" meant. But hey, what do I know!

Both amw and you read too much into this whole "heavenly lengths" thing. One cannot take a single remark by Schumann (of all people) specifically tied to Schubert's 9th Symphony -as representative for a "19th century belief".Generally speaking,  Schumann's purple-prosed criticism  was quite at odds with the general beliefs of his time (a fact acknowledged by amw herself in the next paragraph). The bloated Late Romantic symphonies (occupying only a small time frame within the whole century anyway) are no more representative of the 19th century than Schumann's own piano suites and Lieder.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 03:46:02 AM by Florestan »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12436 on: October 17, 2021, 12:51:49 AM »
anyway, an important new release for people of a certain persuasion



includes: The Oresteia, Mother Tongue, one scene from Yue Ling Jie (not sure why the whole thing isn't included but who knows), and The Navigators (first time on CD)

Navigator sounds good!
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Online Mandryka

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12437 on: October 17, 2021, 01:06:29 AM »
A new recording, I believe.



This sounds very good indeed. And I think it's a nice piece of music. You can hear it on bandcamp.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 01:17:35 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Florestan

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12438 on: October 17, 2021, 03:35:37 AM »
Today we have a much longer attention span

And yet concerts today are usually much shorter (and less varied) than the early 19th century ones.

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and a very different way of looking at concerts.

The way we look at concerts is essentially the Late Romantic one. Its basic features, from programming to etiquette, have been established since before 1900.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: New Releases
« Reply #12439 on: October 17, 2021, 03:45:24 AM »
And I quite agree with your view.
We can't blame the Old School: the appropriate instruments weren't available and they didn't know any better.

A truly sad lot, those benighted souls...  ;D

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They had their day with some amazing performances as a result. But now? What is is the point to try improve on Rubinstein or Moravec, in their old ways?

Are you implying that no contemporary pianist, much less the younger ones, should continue to play and record Chopin anymore?
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe