New Releases

Started by Brian, March 12, 2009, 12:26:29 PM

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premont

Quote from: Florestan on June 29, 2023, 12:40:48 AM...that historical evidence for a practice is not necessarily a reason for its revival.

It may be for some, though evidently not for you. Nor for me however in this case.



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DavidW

Quote from: Florestan on June 29, 2023, 01:10:54 AMAnd given that Beethoven himself was at the forefront of such technological changes,

I feel like that is the first time I've seen you say something nice about Beethoven! ;D

Spotted Horses

It seems to me that arguing against the harpsichord because it is a supposedly inferior technology misses the point. It has its unique capabilities and sonorities. I think a performer is free to do anything that facilitates enjoyment and insight into the music. That can mean using the period instrument, or using a modern instrument. It is clear to me that in many cases the composer was writing to take advantage of the very specific characteristics of the harpsichord. When listening to the WTC it seems to me that many of the preludes take advantage of the sonorities of the harpsichord and are not effective on modern piano. For the fugues I typically find that I appreciate them better on a modern piano, since they are closer to being abstract counterpoint that can be rendered on any instrument. You could say that Bach would have loved the modern piano, but I think he would have written different music for it.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Florestan

Quote from: DavidW on June 29, 2023, 07:29:27 AMI feel like that is the first time I've seen you say something nice about Beethoven! ;D

Well, I feel comforted by the fact that, actually, few people said something nice about Beethoven (as different from about his music).  ;D


Melody is the essence of music. — Mozart

Atriod

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 29, 2023, 07:52:33 AMIt seems to me that arguing against the harpsichord because it is a supposedly inferior technology misses the point. It has its unique capabilities and sonorities. I think a performer is free to do anything that facilitates enjoyment and insight into the music. That can mean using the period instrument, or using a modern instrument. It is clear to me that in many cases the composer was writing to take advantage of the very specific characteristics of the harpsichord. When listening to the WTC it seems to me that many of the preludes take advantage of the sonorities of the harpsichord and are not effective on modern piano. For the fugues I typically find that I appreciate them better on a modern piano, since they are closer to being abstract counterpoint that can be rendered on any instrument. You could say that Bach would have loved the modern piano, but I think he would have written different music for it.

Much to agree with.

The only thing the harpsichord shares in common with clavichord, fortepiano, and pianoforte was being in a line of succession. Otherwise it's a radically different instrument from one where the string is struck. And dynamic range should not be the only objective qualifier as to what makes an instrument superior or not, the tonal color of the harpsichord can be peerless in keyboard instruments. The pianoforte was objectively superior to the fortepiano.

I've demonstrated this to musical lay people - play them harpsichord, classical guitar, and piano and ask them what the first one sounds closest to.

Play the music on the instruments the composers wrote it for. There is a reason there aren't that many fortepiano recordings compared to modern concert grands for music composed during the era of fortepiano but there is an avalanche of harpsichord recordings in music composed for... harpsichord.

DavidW

btw there is a set that provides a nice evolution of the different instruments.  She keeps changing up the instrument starting with the harpsichord.  It is interesting to hear the evolution of style right along side the evolution of the instrument.


Atriod

#15246
Lubimov also does it in this box:





edit: I'm using the width=450 in the tag like on the old forum software, using that you could click on the image to make it fullsize but it's not doing it on this new software?

Mapman

Quote from: Atriod on June 29, 2023, 04:51:51 PMedit: I'm using the width=450 in the tag like on the old forum software, using that you could click on the image to make it fullsize but it's not doing it on this new software?

That still works (and does in your post). When you preview a post, that feature doesn't work.

Mandryka

#15248
Quote from: Atriod on June 29, 2023, 03:03:42 PMThe pianoforte was objectively superior to the fortepiano.


More loudness, certainly.

Quote from: Atriod on June 29, 2023, 03:03:42 PMthe tonal color of the harpsichord can be peerless in keyboard instruments.

Why do you say this? In terms of variety of timbres, I don't see why the harpsichord is more exciting an instrument than the fortepiano, clavichord and organ.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Madiel

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 29, 2023, 07:52:33 AMIt seems to me that arguing against the harpsichord because it is a supposedly inferior technology misses the point. It has its unique capabilities and sonorities. I think a performer is free to do anything that facilitates enjoyment and insight into the music. That can mean using the period instrument, or using a modern instrument. It is clear to me that in many cases the composer was writing to take advantage of the very specific characteristics of the harpsichord. When listening to the WTC it seems to me that many of the preludes take advantage of the sonorities of the harpsichord and are not effective on modern piano. For the fugues I typically find that I appreciate them better on a modern piano, since they are closer to being abstract counterpoint that can be rendered on any instrument. You could say that Bach would have loved the modern piano, but I think he would have written different music for it.

Except that Andras Schiff and others argue quite strongly that many pieces in WTC were not written for harpsichord at all, but for other keyboard instruments.

Which means that if you're going to follow this logic, you would be playing several different keyboards. A harpsichord would only be "correct" for some of them.
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aukhawk

Quote from: Atriod on June 29, 2023, 04:51:51 PMLubimov also does it in this box:

And Spanyi in his CPE Bach recordings.

premont

Quote from: Madiel on June 29, 2023, 07:48:18 PMExcept that Andras Schiff and others argue quite strongly that many pieces in WTC were not written for harpsichord at all, but for other keyboard instruments.

Which means that if you're going to follow this logic, you would be playing several different keyboards. A harpsichord would only be "correct" for some of them.

Which may well be true. Particularly I think the clavichord is actual in book I. Enrico Baiano, Robert Levin and Daniel Chorzempa have shown us, that different instruments for the different parts of the WTC may work well.
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DavidW

Quote from: Madiel on June 29, 2023, 07:48:18 PMExcept that Andras Schiff and others argue quite strongly that many pieces in WTC were not written for harpsichord at all, but for other keyboard instruments.

I vaguely recall reading in a biography (a million years ago though!) that Bach liked playing and composing on the clavichord in the morning while drinking enormous amounts of coffee.

It was a popular instrument at the time, perhaps more popular in the household than the harpsichord.  The clavichord is quiet and difficult to record well.  I don't think there is as many recordings using it, but I recommend this one:


Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd











Movies, movies, movies.









The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Traverso

Quote from: Atriod on June 29, 2023, 03:03:42 PMMuch to agree with.

The only thing the harpsichord shares in common with clavichord, fortepiano, and pianoforte was being in a line of succession. Otherwise it's a radically different instrument from one where the string is struck. And dynamic range should not be the only objective qualifier as to what makes an instrument superior or not, the tonal color of the harpsichord can be peerless in keyboard instruments. The pianoforte was objectively superior to the fortepiano.

I've demonstrated this to musical lay people - play them harpsichord, classical guitar, and piano and ask them what the first one sounds closest to.

Play the music on the instruments the composers wrote it for. There is a reason there aren't that many fortepiano recordings compared to modern concert grands for music composed during the era of fortepiano but there is an avalanche of harpsichord recordings in music composed for... harpsichord.


I hope that some day there will be a real good recording and performance of the early sonatas from Beethoven.
One has to get rid of one's old skin, it doesn't have to lead necessarily to a "Hammerschidt" exercise.
Another appeal is essential for the artist to deliver a convincing argument uncontaminated by the many often bombastic interpretations on the piano.
The Harpsichord is certainly not an inferior instrument compared to the "Black Monster) One has to accept it on it's own merits,well depending on the discovery of it's values wich is a personal thing or as I would say handycap for some..... :)

Florestan

Quote from: Traverso on June 30, 2023, 12:35:13 PMI hope that some day there will be a real good recording and performance of the early sonatas from Beethoven.
One has to get rid of one's old skin, it doesn't have to lead necessarily to a "Hammerschidt" exercise.
Another appeal is essential for the artist to deliver a convincing argument uncontaminated by the many often bombastic interpretations on the piano.
The Harpsichord is certainly not an inferior instrument compared to the "Black Monster) One has to accept it on it's own merits,well depending on the discovery of it's values wich is a personal thing or as I would say handycap for some..... :)


Disentangling Beethoven from his image as The Titan, engaged in heroic struggles against all odds and against whomever and whatever, is a titanic task (pun).  ;D
Melody is the essence of music. — Mozart

Traverso

Quote from: Florestan on June 30, 2023, 12:56:51 PMDisentangling Beethoven from his image as The Titan, engaged in heroic struggles against all odds and against whomever and whatever, is a titanic task (pun).  ;D

Bla Bla Bla..... ;D  what I wanted to emphasize is a plea to separate the meaning of these works from the inseparable obviousness that leads to a hunger for the black beast. This blocks the way, maybe, who knows, it will lead to dry and dead wood. I don't know if it's valuable but not shot is always missed. :o

Florestan

Quote from: Traverso on June 30, 2023, 01:18:42 PMwhat I wanted to emphasize is a plea to separate the meaning of these works from the inseparable obviousness that leads to a hunger for the black beast.

At least my bla bla made some sort of sense. The one in your bla bla, Jan, eludes me completely...  ;D
Melody is the essence of music. — Mozart

Symphonic Addict

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