Rihm's Wolf Gang

[some guy]

What else do you listen to? I don't think that any liner notes will help (and might, indeed, hinder). But listening to other music probably will. Kurtag, Lachenmann, Huber, Dutilleux even. Some Czernowin and Chin, maybe.

But those are only possibilities. If you're unfamiliar with avant garde European instrumental music generally, then you might want to start getting familiar. (And Rihm isn't at all a bad place to start, come to think of it!) If you are familiar with it, then it may just be something about Rihm (and these are early Rihm, when he was in his early twenties). In either case, nothing beats listening, and listening again, and listening again.

[bhodges]

In either case, nothing beats listening, and listening again, and listening again.

Word. 

--Bruce

[UB]

The two disc set with Morphonie and the three Klangbeschreibungen is absolutely marvelous, I'd say. And the string quartet #10 is very tasty indeed.

Absolutely agree about the two disc set. I will have to listen to #10 again to see how tasty I find it. Last night I listened to the 2005 version of Verwandlung 2 for orchestra and found it delicious.

[monafam]

I feel I probably haven't given it the "listening" (as recommended and seconded) it deserves.  The first time, I was just on my couch (we recently had had our 4th child, and I was letting my wife get some sleep in -- so it was late and I had the headphones in).  The second time was at work -- simiilarly a bad time to get much out of it.   I definitely need to give it a couple more listens.

As far as who I listen to, I'm probably less "contemporary" -- or at least I've never heard of the composers you presented.  Any suggestions (maybe I can get this on their respective composers pages)?  I have tried to broaden my horizons -- I tend to like James MacMillan, but I can't say I've taken many "chances" with regards to more "contemporary" composers.

Thanks!

[some guy]

Well, if you already like MacMillan, then Dutilleux would be the easiest next step, I'd guess. I know some very cautious listeners (OK, it's just the one) who also find Klaus Huber palatable, not sure why! (I know why I find Huber enjoyable; I'm not sure about the cautious listener.)

Biggest point I can make is this, twentieth century music is all accessible, if you've got the ears for it. We tend to forget how inaccessible 18th and 19th century music sounded to a lot of its auditors, because by now we've all got the ears for it. Hence the advice to listen and listen and listen. Not every piece by every composer will repay that effort, but that's pretty much true no matter what era a piece is from. (And not every listener will find every composer likable. I don't care much for Telemann, for instance.)

[monafam]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I also found your statement about the accessibility of 20th century music as refreshing.  Not to say that I've applied that, but it gives me the courage to make some of those choices.  Sure, I may not like them -- but, as you mentioned this may happen irregardless.

If I use MacMillan as an example.  I got two CDs a long while back and didn't appreciate them at the time.  Then I gave him another shot and found something that was lacking in my first few listens (a passion I don't necessarily hear in some older works).    (Looks like I need to do the same thing to a series of SQs I got by Gloria Coates!)

[UB]

(Looks like I need to do the same thing to a series of SQs I got by Gloria Coates!)

If you can come to appreciate Gloria Coates string quartets, you can pretty much tackle anything else. Just out of curiosity, which works by MacMillan do you have?

The thing with Rihm is that he writes in many different styles so when you hear a new piece you can never be sure which he is using this time or perhaps a completely new one.

My favorite work by Rihm is probably either die Hamletmaschine or his St. Luke Passion. The Passion is very much in the style of Bach while die Hamletmaschine is in the style of pure mayhem. So which one I want to hear depends on how I feel.

[monafam]

out of curiosity, which works by MacMillan do you have?

I am work, so it's possible I won't get all of these right --

"The Confession of Isobel Gowdie"
"The Exorcism of Rio Sumpúl"
"Epiclesis"
"Memento"
"Seven Last Words from the Cross"
"St John Passion"
"Visions of a November Spring"
"Veni, Veni, Emmanuel"
"Triduum"
(There might be some more...)

[CRCulver]

So many of Rihm's works from the late 1980s and the early 1990s seem clearly inspired by the final works of Luigi Nono. They've got the same interest in spatialization, and the same form of pianissimo gestures separated by gaping silences. Are there any publications where Rihm speaks of his appreciation for Nono's music?

[petrarch]

So many of Rihm's works from the late 1980s and the early 1990s seem clearly inspired by the final works of Luigi Nono. They've got the same interest in spatialization, and the same form of pianissimo gestures separated by gaping silences. Are there any publications where Rihm speaks of his appreciation for Nono's music?

Rihm's appreciation for Nono is one of those well-known facts, most texts about him mention that in one way or another. I guess Rihm's Das Eismeer (aka La Lugubre Gondola) attests to that admiration.

[not edward]

Rihm's appreciation for Nono is one of those well-known facts, most texts about him mention that in one way or another. I guess Rihm's Das Eismeer (aka La Lugubre Gondola) attests to that admiration.

It does, being the last of five pieces subtitled "Music in memory of Luigi Nono". (The other four are Cantus firmus, Ricercare, abgewandt II and Umfassung.)

[UB]

Edward - Do you know if there are recordings of Cantus firmus and Ricercare? I do not seem to have them and a search of Amazon and the web did not seem to turn them up. 

Thanks

[not edward]

Edward - Do you know if there are recordings of Cantus firmus and Ricercare? I do not seem to have them and a search of Amazon and the web did not seem to turn them up. 

Thanks

If there are, I'm not aware of them. So much Rihm, so little recording budget....

[SonicMan46]

Well, Susan (i.e. Harpo) & I have just returned from our NYC vacation, and attended the Takács Quartet concert at Carnegie Hall - the program included works by Schumann, Rihm, and Beethoven - I liked the Beethoven the best (but have this group's complete output of Ludwig's SQs); the Rihm (SQ No. 11) I liked the least - was suppose to reflect the 'flowing of a river' but seem to just meander w/ occasional irritating string playing - hey, just me - I own so many SQs that I enjoy thoroughly.

So, my question (and not owning any recordings by this apparently prolific and possibly erratic composer?) is if I want to purchase a few discs of this composer, what are some to consider as first choices?  There seems to be a lot of conflicting comments on this thread concerning Rihm and his many works as to their quality & variety - thus, looking for something that I may enjoy, possibly his more post-Romantic output?  Just not sure w/ no listening experience - would appreciate any suggestions - thanks.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

So, my question (and not owning any recordings by this apparently prolific and possibly erratic composer?) is if I want to purchase a few discs of this composer, what are some to consider as first choices?  There seems to be a lot of conflicting comments on this thread concerning Rihm and his many works as to their quality & variety - thus, looking for something that I may enjoy, possibly his more post-Romantic output?  Just not sure w/ no listening experience - would appreciate any suggestions - thanks.

I'm not the most experienced Rihm listener either, but I reiterate my love for Jagden und Formen. Also, being on DG it's probably easy to find.

I don't much like the Rihm quartets I've heard, either - your description ("seem to just meander w/ occasional irritating string playing") captures my own experience (and I haven't even heard #11!). But I would like to explore his large-scale work a bit more.

(what LvB did they play, by the way?)

[CRCulver]

I'm not the most experienced Rihm listener either, but I reiterate my love for Jagden und Formen. Also, being on DG it's probably easy to find.

DG found the 20/21 series very unprofitable and has deleted most of the discs from its catalogue, including  Jagden und Formen. Grab a copy while you still can.

[snyprrr]

"The Essential Rihm" sounds like one of those Philips 2fers (The Essential Lutoslawski,etc). Looking over his works list (up to 1990) I find this...well...un-do-able. What I've noticed is that a little bit of Rihm goes a very long way. I would simply see what the major labels have to say, which makes choices pretty obvious. I think a lot of people might find a work they like, and then in frustration spend lots of $$$ going down the rabbitt hole for another masterpiece. Stick with the pieces that brought him fame (1976-1988).  The initial list at the top of this thread should do, but just to reiterate:

Jagden und Formen (DG)
Time Chant (DG-Mutter)

SQs 3,5,8 (Arditti)
Music for 3 Strings (CPO/Kairos) Go w/CPO- 50min
Fremde Szenen? (piano trio-CPO/Kairos) Go w/CPO- 50min
Trio Basso Vol.1 (vla,vnc,bs-Koch Schwann) w/Kagel, Kalitzke, etc.
Clarinet Qnt (1988)

Klavierstuck No.5-7

Chiffres (CPO 2-cd) though J+F is a culmination of this series

opera?- Conquest of Mexico

I don't even have all of these, and I have no real desire to go further. The vocal/orch pieces on Abbado's DG "wein modern" series are harrowing enough if I need to remind myself.  To find a good concerto or symphonic work you'll need someone who has already plunked down the $$$ to advise you (and how many of THEM are there?). But I won't touch it...just too much stuff.
READ AS MANY REVIEWS AS YOU CAN FIND FIRST!

But don't get me wrong. What I have, I really really butlike I said, it goes a looong way. Jagden und Formen+Mutter, or Arditti...then you're on your own!

Starting with PostNo.10, there is some "Essential Rihm" talk. Really, everyone has covered the bases here pretty well. Be careful WHICH PIECE you get. Jagden und Formen is probably the best bet. I looove the Arditti SQs for their intractable hipness.

I'm sorry to hear the SQ No.11 was,... well, do I still "need" to hear it? Probably, haha! (you all had some interesting discussion about seeing this SQ No.11 quite a few months ago, very cool) I haven't seen much, if any, activity in the Rihm discography of late, and perhaps Rihm might be falling out of favour at the moment, hmmm?

I mean, for a living composer, having people like you see his work here and there is nice, but if it's not coming out on cd, what are you going to do? I was totally surprised to see the Rihm thread boosted, like, what tsunami happened here?, and I wonder what fate awaits the Lachenmann and Sciarrino thread, and so forth...

High Modernism is dead. Long live High Modernism!

[CRCulver]

I haven't seen much, if any, activity in the Rihm discography of late, and perhaps Rihm might be falling out of favour at the moment, hmmm?

Hanssler Classics continues their Rihm edition, which is supposedly to be like 6 or 7 discs by the time it is finished, and Kairos releases Rihm recordings pretty frequently. If DG no longer puts out Rihm like they did in the 1990s, it's because they don't release much by any contemporary composers anymore.

[CRCulver]

Rihm's opera Dionysus will be premiered at the Salzburg Festival next year, and Metzmacher has written an account of its genesis.

[petrarch]

This is an outstanding work. Rihm at his most contemplative, with sparse and quite refined textural writing, never boastful. A good reminder why I have so many of his works--it has been a very long while since I listened to anything by him.

http://www.amazon.com/Vigilia-Six-Voices-Ensemble-Hybr/dp/B003F18080