Old Musical Instruments & Modern Reproductions!

[Gurn Blanston]

Above is a post that I just left in the 'listening thread' that warrants further discussion here for those who may be interested not only in Beethoven's Cello Works but also in the question of period vs. modern instrument performances; this is a unique offering by Dorian of two experienced performers on their respective instruments, i.e. keyboard & cello playing these compositions w/ both a modern and period approach, hence the need for 4 discs (at really a bargain price!).

The cello used in these recordings was made by Carlo Giuseppe Testore in 1694 out of Milan, Italy; the instrument was strung w/ steel strings for the modern interpretations, and w/ gut strings for the period recordings; the gut strings were made by Damian Dlugolecki (Website HERE).  Not sure if different bows and/or bowing techniques were used?

The pianos varied; a Steinway Model C recently manufactured in Hamburg, Germany was used for the modern recordings, while three (3) different fortepianos were played for the period performances; these 'matched' the time periods of the compositions of the pieces and included a Wolf-Dulcken, Wolf-Streicher, & a Regier 'Grafendorfer'; the liner notes go into considerable detail on the features and differences of these various fortepianos, and the reasons that Orkis chose one over the other in the period performances; he also discussed the advantages and limitations (and the interaction w/ the cello) of the various selection of instruments.  A listing of the works on Dorian HERE - 

So, Dave, what did you think of it? Is it worth to augment my 5 cycles of these works with 2 more? I am intrigued by the concept, but the only comparison I have right now is the unfortunate Diabelli Variations disk(s) on Naxos, where the differences in the instruments too a back seat to the pianist, who wasn't... Kempff or Serkin.



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Listening to:
Floregium - RV 107 Concerto in g for Flute, Oboe, Violin & Bassoon 2nd mvmt - Largo

[SonicMan46]

So, Dave, what did you think of it? Is it worth to augment my 5 cycles of these works with 2 more? I am intrigued by the concept, but the only comparison I have right now is the unfortunate Diabelli Variations disk(s) on Naxos, where the differences in the instruments too a back seat to the pianist, who wasn't... Kempff or Serkin.

Hello, Gurn - I've probably gone through a half dozen recordings of these works over the years; now down to two 'modern' ones + the addition of the 4-disc set discussed, so guess that I currently have 4 different interpretations.  Not sure if you have a 'period' version, but if not, certainly a consideration for your collection - can always 'cull out' a set or two that may not be getting much play time?

I've listened to that new set three times now and must say that the period instrument interpretations are my preference - the cello is just much more mellow and the foretepianos used complement the string performance beautifully.  In addition, the 4 discs are reasonably priced on the Dorian website.  I don't believe that these recordings would disappoint you at all (if not the opposite!) - but do you need 7 sets for these works?      Dave

[Antoine Marchand]

Posted yesterday in the listening thread, with a clamorous reception  , I think this is the natural place for this information:

Le Salon de Musique de Marie-Antoinette
Sandrine Chatron (harp)
Isabelle Poulenard (soprano)
Jean-François Lombard (tenor)
Stéphanie Paulet (violin)
Amélie Michel (flute)
rec. Musée de la Musique, Cité de la Musique, Paris, June 2008. DDD
AMBROISIE AM179 [77:33]

Delightful examples of 'musique du intérieur', intimate salon repertory not intended for concert hall –like the great "neoclassical" tragédie lyrique of Gluck or the opéra comique of Gréty or Monsigny-, but the music that Marie-Antoinette played daily on the harp or the harpsichord, or even sang.

The real protagonist of this recording is the marvelous Érard harp, Paris, 1799, played by Sandrine Chatron.

History:
It is a single-action instrument with a "fork" mechanism (á fourchettes). Its flutted forepillar is surmounted by a Doric capital decorated with rams' heads. The whole instrument is painted in the style of harpsichord soundboards, with polychrome trophies, medallions, bouquets and foliage. The instrument entered the collection of the Musée de la Musique in 1981 as part of the bequest of Madame Antoinette Marotte de Quiviéres.

Characteristics of the instrument:
Forty-one gut strings (the five lowest strings with wire-covered silk). Compass: five octaves and five notes (F'-d''''). Text engraved on the metal part of the neck: Érard frères par Brevet d'invention , á Paris, 1799; N°7. Single action operadted by seven steel pedals located in the base. Each of these pedals, when depressed, shortens all the strings of the same note-name (C, D, etc.) by a length corresponding to a semitone. Eight pedal which opens and closes five shutters placed at the back of the soundbox. The instrument has been tuned and maintained by Beat Wolf (maker and restorer of harps). Pitch: a'=430 Hz. 

The recording covers a beautiful, intimate repertory by different composers, including a nice romance for sopran & harp called "C'est mon ami" (1773), composed by Marie-Antoinette herself (I found this one as example on You Tube). 

Francesco PETRINI (1744-1819)
Les Folies d'Espagne, and 12 variations for harp
Christophe Willibald GLUCK (1714-1787)
'J'ai perdu mon Eurydice' for tenor and harp
Jean-Baptiste KRUMPHOLTZ (1742-1790)
'L'amante abandonée' for soprano, violin and harp
'La nuit profonde' for tenor and harp
Sonata in F major for harp and violin
Jean-Baptiste CARDON (1760-1803)
Sonata in E flat for harp
Antoine DAUVERGNE (1713-1797)
'Tircis et Cloris s'absentent chaque jour de leur troupeau' for soprano, tenor, violin and harp
'La beauté pour qui je brûle' for tenor, violin and harp
'C'est une folie d'avoir tant d'appâts' for tenor, violin and harp
Joseph-Boulogne de SAINT-GEORGES (1745-1799)
Sonata in E flat for harp and flute
Marie-Antoinette (1755-1793)
'C'est mon ami' for soprano and harp
Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART (1756-1791)
'Oiseaux, si tous les ans' for soprano and harp
Adagio for glass harmonica
Jan Ladislav DUSIK (1760-1812)
Sonatine for harp
Giovanni PAISIELLO (1740-1816)
Entr'acte for harp from Il Re Teodoro in Venezia
André-Ernest-Modest GRÉTRY (1741-1813)
'Malgré la fortune cruelle' from La Caravane du Caire
Jean-Paul-Égide MARTINI (1741-1816)
'Plaisir d'amour' for soprano, tenor, violin and harp

http://www.youtube.com/v/mlxOr6qjaMM

Here two reviews: MUSICWEB-INTERNATIONAL and the TELEGRAPH

[SonicMan46]

Posted yesterday in the listening thread, with a clamorous reception  , I think this is the natural place for this information:

Le Salon de Musique de Marie-Antoinette..................

rec. Musée de la Musique, Cité de la Musique, Paris, June 2008. DDD
AMBROISIE AM179 [77:33]

Delightful examples of 'musique du intérieur', intimate salon repertory not intended for concert hall –like the great "neoclassical" tragédie lyrique of Gluck or the opéra comique of Gréty or Monsigny-, but the music that Marie-Antoinette played daily on the harp or the harpsichord, or even sang.....................................

Antoine - thanks for repeating your post here & the wonderful description of the 'restored' harp - read both links & plan to add this disc to my 'wish list' - Susan & I are harp enthusiasts - she is also a soprano singer who plays on a number of Celtic harps, so should be an enjoyable disc for us, and for many reasons!  Dave 

[Antoine Marchand]

Antoine - thanks for repeating your post here & the wonderful description of the 'restored' harp - read both links & plan to add this disc to my 'wish list' - Susan & I are harp enthusiasts - she is also a soprano singer who plays on a number of Celtic harps, so should be an enjoyable disc for us, and for many reasons!  Dave 

I know it, Dave. I recalled that Susan (aka Harpo) is a harpist and a soprano singer. It was the mean reason to decide to repost this information here: so she will probably sing that Marie-Antoinette's song. 

[SonicMan46]

Pedal Harpsichord - another 'new' discovery for me! 

Basically, two harpsichords combined, one on top (played w/ the hands) and the other on the bottom (played w/ the feet) - my introduction is the 2-CD set of the Bach WTC, Bk. 1 played by Peter Watchorn, an Australian keyboardist w/ his own label, Musica Omnia - 

Below pics of the cover art for the WTC recordings & one of Watchorn; below that, Watchorn himself playing the 'pedal harpsichord' - noticed that he had only socks on his feet (not sure 'what' Papa Bach would have worn?); further below are some more pics of this instrument - these are all 'modern' reconstructions based on historic data.

The sound of this instrument is just wonderful - fuller & deeper, more resonant tones from the 'foot' strings - I will definitely plan to purchased the WTC, Bk. 2, when released! 

Back on the third page (post #40) of this thread (beginning above w/o the pics - but please backup and take a look if not done already); Peter Watchorn's release of Bach's WTC II has just been mailed - extended out to 3 full discs in a fold out package slightly thicker than a standard jewel box.  I'm really enjoying these recordings - reviews may take a number of months to appear, but if interested in the 'pedal harpsichord', then a nice combination of Books I & II.

Pertinent to this thread, I just wanted to mention the instruments used; two of course, an upper dual manual one shown below (right); the lower 'pedal' instrument not demonstrated.  The liner notes for this release are just excellent, much written by Watchorn.  The upper harpsichord is a large German-style instrument by A. R. McAllister (1999)  derived from one by the Saxon builder, Johann Harrass (1662-1714).  The pedal harpsichord was built by Hubbard & Broekman in 1990 after a design by the shop's director; none of the latter have survived to the present, so designs are based on historic records/designs.  Great stuff! 

 

[SonicMan46]

Bach, JS - Orchestral Suites - new recording (2007) w/ Monica Huggett & Ensemble Sonnerie, plus Gonzalo X. Ruiz on oboe (including his reconstruction of Suite No. 2 for oboe rather than flute or violin) - revisionist original reconstructions of these 'collective' suites which were likely from Bach's earlier years.  So, why put this disc here?  First, period instrument performance including Ruiz on a Baroque oboe (in addition, he is a recognized expert in 'reed construction' of the era - even has multiple examples in the Met in NYC!); and second, an attempt to reconstruct these suites from their original combinations of a much smaller group on instruments w/ fewer strings and more balanced emphasis on the winds.

I'm really enjoying this disc at the moment, and want to compare to my older recordings of these works which do have a 'heavy' emphasis on the strings - this might 'open one's eyes' - for the better?  Don't know unless one gives the recording a listen - 



 

[SonicMan46]

I know it, Dave. I recalled that Susan (aka Harpo) is a harpist and a soprano singer. It was the mean reason to decide to repost this information here: so she will probably sing that Marie-Antoinette's song. 

Well, I received the disc described by Antoine - different cover art but same music; compilation of 'chamber' or 'salon' pieces from the late 18th century.  Of course, one of the major attractions is the restored Erard harp from 1799 w/ gut strings - the sound is just beautiful, kind of between a modern concert harp and the Celtic ones that Susan plays @ home.  There are pictures in the liner notes that I'll scan later and add to this post - 

P.S. - added an image scanned from the liner notes of the actual instrument - beautiful!

 

[SonicMan46]

Tangent Piano - I now have at least two discs w/ Miklos Spanyi playing this fascinating 'early' piano which was somewhat popular in the 18th century, and likely played by many of the keyboard composers of the era.  Spanyi seems to be specializing in this instrument - his HUGE project is recording the CPE Bach keyboard solo and orchestral works using the tangent piano - I've not yet 'bought into' these recordings, mainly because there are just too many (3 dozen or so?) and each is not cheap on the BIS label - maybe a 'box set' in the future, but when?

A brief description and history can be found in a Wiki article HERE - the name obviously derives from the tangent (or vertical) action of striking the strings (other similar instruments would include the clavichord, fortepiano, and modern piano); however, the tangent piano uses slips of wood (possibly covered w/ thin leather) to hit the strings, along w/ a variety of other options to modify the sound.  An interesting description of an even early tangent instrument is described by CJ Barlow HERE.

I'm really enjoying the sound of this instrument which may of course relate to Spanyi's playing and his instrument (a later one for the period, reconstructed from one after Baldassare Pastori, 1799) - could find only a 'small' image (inserted below).  I would love to acquire some other recordings played on this historic piano precursor - 



   

[Szykneij]

Unfortunately, I don't have 20 million dollars in spare change available to bid on these two beauties, although I did recently buy a nice Guarneri copy from a local dealer I know who I fortuitously bumped into one morning at Dunkin' Donuts.  He asked me to stop by to take a look at the violin, which I immediately bought for a much more affordable price. It only needed a new nut, bridge, tailgut, and strings, and in about an hour I had it back in playing condition. The background information for these two genuine instruments is fascinating:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GUARNERI-DEL-GESUS-1720-TWO-FINE-ITALIAN-VIOLINS_W0QQitemZ290400903583QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439d3e219f

[SonicMan46]

Unfortunately, I don't have 20 million dollars in spare change available to bid on these two beauties, although I did recently buy a nice Guarneri copy from a local dealer I know who I fortuitously bumped into one morning at Dunkin' Donuts.  He asked me to stop by to take a look at the violin, which I immediately bought for a much more affordable price. It only needed a new nut, bridge, tailgut, and strings, and in about an hour I had it back in playing condition. The background information for these two genuine instruments is fascinating:

Tony - fascinating story as suggested!  But, I believe that I'll pass on the bidding at 20 Mils - however, quite generous of seller to offer 'free shipping' -     Dave

[SonicMan46]

Istanbul w/ Jordi Savall, Hesperion XXI, and many guests on different near eastern/Turkish musical instruments, including the oud (below, right) - the instruments listed include the ney, tanbur, santur, viele, kanun, variety of percussions, and others - there are plenty of pics in the liner notes showing these wooden beauties! 

In the booklet, a personage named Dimitrie Cantemir (1673-1723) is discussed; from Moldavia (eastern Europe, now part of Romania, Ukraine, etc.) - he was a fleeting prince of the country, a polyglot, writer, diplomat, musician, and likely other roles!  Put together a book on the 'Science of Music' and the 'Musical Traditions of the Sepharades and Armeniennes' - I'm assuming that much of the material on this disc is gather from these writings.

The music is haunting and wonderfully performed; it is exotic to my western ears but thoroughly intriguing and enjoyable - recommended by Brian not too long ago - if your into mixed-culture near eastern musical genres dating back to the Ottoman Empire, then this may just be the CD for you! 


 

[SonicMan46]

Well just posted in the 'listening thread' on a new acquisition that seems appropriate here:

Giustini, Lodovico (1685-1743) - Fortepiano Sonatas performed by Adrea Coen on a copy of a 1726 original instrument made by Bartolomeo Cristofori, the inventor of the 'piano' - the copy was made by Kerstin Schwarz; a picture of the keyboard is shown below from her husband's (Tony Chinnery) website HERE - 

These Fortepiano Sonatas were first published in 1732 (of course the year of Haydn's birth!) and were written specifically for Cristofori's instrument; so quite a 'confluence of the stars' here - a copy of an early piano by the inventor, himself, plus presumably the first keyboard works specifically composed for the instrument!

Now, how does this 'foretepiano' sound - well quite good!  Not as full or resonant as some of the works later in the century recorded by many fortepianists, but quite enjoyable, well performed by Coen, and obviously of great historic value to those interested in the early development of this instrument - 


 

[petrarch]

This is quite good, and the recordings are excellent:

http://www.outhere-music.com/store-RIC_100-en

[SonicMan46]

This is quite good, and the recordings are excellent:

http://www.outhere-music.com/store-RIC_100-en

Hello petrArch - that set looks fascinating - offered on Amazon USA for just over $50 - my only question is how is the English version - does it exist?  That would be my main decision for a purchase, i.e. something that I can read or watch - thanks for any inputs?  Dave 

[Gurn Blanston]

Tangent Piano - I now have at least two discs w/ Miklos Spanyi playing this fascinating 'early' piano which was somewhat popular in the 18th century, and likely played by many of the keyboard composers of the era.  Spanyi seems to be specializing in this instrument - his HUGE project is recording the CPE Bach keyboard solo and orchestral works using the tangent piano - I've not yet 'bought into' these recordings, mainly because there are just too many (3 dozen or so?) and each is not cheap on the BIS label - maybe a 'box set' in the future, but when?

A brief description and history can be found in a Wiki article HERE - the name obviously derives from the tangent (or vertical) action of striking the strings (other similar instruments would include the clavichord, fortepiano, and modern piano); however, the tangent piano uses slips of wood (possibly covered w/ thin leather) to hit the strings, along w/ a variety of other options to modify the sound.  An interesting description of an even early tangent instrument is described by CJ Barlow HERE.

I'm really enjoying the sound of this instrument which may of course relate to Spanyi's playing and his instrument (a later one for the period, reconstructed from one after Baldassare Pastori, 1799) - could find only a 'small' image (inserted below).  I would love to acquire some other recordings played on this historic piano precursor - 



   

Now, these look interesting. I have a couple disks of tangentenflügel too; one is Guy Penson playing some Mozart and the other is Spanyi, can't remember who it is (  ) but neither is these here. I have some of Edelmann's solo sonatas (on harpsichord) and rather enjoy his music, I'll dial in that quartets disk for sure. ANd Abel is always interesting. Thanks for pointing these out, Dave!

On your other topic, the Cristofori piano, that's a "gotta have" for anyone interested in the development of the piano. Thanks for the review.

[Antoine Marchand]

I have a couple disks of tangentenflügel too; one is Guy Penson playing some Mozart...

Excellent disc, although it just includes a few piano pieces on tangentenflügel, if it is the same that I own. Do you have that disc on "Ricercar", Gurn? Because I have the version reissued by Brilliant into the Mozart Edition; but, unfortunately, are not provided details about the instruments. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Excellent disc, although it just includes a few piano pieces on tangentenflügel, if it is the same that I own. Do you have that disc on "Ricercar", Gurn? Because I have the version reissued by Brilliant into the Mozart Edition; but, unfortunately, are not provided details about the instruments. 

No, no, mine is the Brilliant too. I suppose that with all that music for next to nothing, getting information too would have been a push...

[SonicMan46]

Now, these look interesting. I have a couple disks of tangentenflügel too; one is Guy Penson playing some Mozart and the other is Spanyi, can't remember who it is (  ) but neither is these here. I have some of Edelmann's solo sonatas (on harpsichord) and rather enjoy his music, I'll dial in that quartets disk for sure. ANd Abel is always interesting. Thanks for pointing these out, Dave!

On your other topic, the Cristofori piano, that's a "gotta have" for anyone interested in the development of the piano. Thanks for the review.

Hello Gurn - yes, loving that tangent piano; I have another Spanyi disc on the way (Gamba Sonatas) - 

I listened to all 3 discs of that Guistini set - that copied fortepiano does have a 'lighter' sound than those played by Brautigam or Staier, but was quite enjoyable, esp. considering the 'historic' interest of that set - Dave 

[Gurn Blanston]

Dave & Antoine:

I just this minute bought this disk, we'll have a go at it. Looks quite interesting even though finding any info on it isn't easy. I'll report back.