Bach Better Than Handel

[prémont]

1983....only 26 years ago.

Mike

Thanks.

[Opus106]

Yes, and this is one of the great problems in a modern recording of Händels organ concertos on CD. You hear the more or less gifted organist´s same "improvisations" over and over.

Actually, isn't that the point of a cadenza? It's the part of the concerto where for a few moments the performer takes over from the composer. Of course, Handel's own not being in existence is unfortunate.

This is also why I (e.g.) prefer Beethoven´s piano concertos performed with LvB´s own cadenzas. This has at least got the mark of authenticity.

This, on the other hand, would become tiring soon. (I am not talking LvB's candenzas per se, but about most/all soloists using the same cadenza all the time.)

[jlaurson]

Actually, isn't that the point of a cadenza? It's the part of the concerto where for a few moments the performer takes over from the composer. Of course, Handel's own not being in existence is unfortunate.

It would be more than surprising had he ever put cadenzas down or even thought about doing so.

Mozart wrote a few cadenzas out as "strong suggestions"... but only Beethoven, apparently appalled what some pianists chose to add to his concertos, really insisted in 'fixing' the cadenzas.

(WAM PC24 K491 hasn't got one, for example... so there are oodles of cadenzas by other composers. A brief, little discussion of this here.)

This, on the other hand, would become tiring soon. (I am not talking LvB's candenzas per se, but about most/all soloists using the same cadenza all the time.)

--but that's what everyone does. I don't know of a recording, actually, that doesn't use LvB's cadenzas for the Beethoven concertos. Th artist could be sure to be ripped to shreds by every (pseudo-) critic. [I can think of some, after all, I suppose. Gould PC1 and, as Premont points out, Kempff in PC4.]

...Incidentally, LvB didn't do write one for the Violin Concerto, which is why you get a LITTLE variation. The standard (tired and old but suitable) is Kreisler. Schneiderhan has some claim to being Beethoven, because it's the transcription of the op.61a (VC for Piano soloist, instead) cadenza that Beethoven did write out. I find it inspired, actually. (This recording, one of my favorites for that and every other reason, features the LvB/Schneiderhan "Timpani" cadenza.)
The Gardiner/Mullova recording uses the Ottavio Dantone cadenza, and Kremer/Marinner use Schnittke's.
Of all people, Joshua Bell (w/Norrington)--happily--does something different: he plays his own cadenza.

[Renfield]

(Off-topic, but I think Heifetz plays his own cadenza as well, in the Toscanini/NBC recording [of the Beethoven violin concerto, that is].)

[Marc]

Love the Handel I have.  I believe that his chamber music is some of my favorite listening (thank you Harry).  However,:



....and it's Secretariat Bach coming down the stretch.....

.... and he's opened up a twenty-two length lead! [sic! how could he count that? ]

Golly! The Belmont Stakes 1973, isn't it?
And do you think it's fair to compare Secretariat's skills with 1989 winner Easy Goer and/or vice versa?
Is it fair to compare Bach's composing skills with Händel and/or vice versa?

Well, yes sir, let's give it a try!
Bach is something like a Secretariat. Though he's not really like an office complex, but more like a complex office.
And Händel is an .... Easy Goer?

[prémont]

Actually, isn't that the point of a cadenza? It's the part of the concerto where for a few moments the performer takes over from the composer. Of course, Handel's own not being in existence is unfortunate.

It is not the point of a cadenza, that we should hear the same improviation all the time, in the way we do, when we listen to recordings.

This, on the other hand, would become tiring soon. (I am not talking LvB's candenzas per se, but about most/all soloists using the same cadenza all the time.)

I think Beethovens own cadanzas stand the test of time. For recordings I prefer them.

But of course a pianist may improvise at a concert, if he is able to do so, - this would be in accordance with the intended function of the cadenza.

[prémont]

I don't know of a recording, actually, that doesn't use LvB's cadenzas for the Beethoven concertos.

    Do we talk about the piano concertos??

E.g. Kempff uses his own cadenzas, van Immerseel and Robert Levin "improvise" their own cadenzas rather talented, I think, but I do not know if I shall get tired of them.

[prémont]

Is it fair to compare Bach's composing skills with Händel and/or vice versa?

No, it is not fair, and therefore I declared the topic exhausted above (Reply 44), but it is not my thread, so I can not lock it.

But discussing the function of cadenzas is more interesting, even if it should be done in an appropriate thread.

[Opus106]

It is not the point of a cadenza, that we should hear the same improviation all the time, in the way we do, when we listen to recordings.

If it's Beethoven-Kreisler, Brahms-Joachim et. al. all the time, then I agree with you.

Thanks for the information on Mozart and cadenzas, Jens.

And with apologies to Dave for this few-posts-long detour, I'll set the thread back on track by letting people know that there are currently offers on Handel discs at MDT and PrestoClassical.

[Marc]

No, it is not fair, and therefore I declared the topic exhausted above (Reply 44), but it is not my thread, so I can not lock it.

But discussing the function of cadenzas is more interesting, even if it should be done in an appropriate thread.

Agreed.
But I just had to react in a topic where both Bach AND Secretariat were mentioned!

[Coopmv]

I believe Ton Koopman is among the very few organists, both living and dead, who have recorded both the Complete Bach Organ Works and Handel's Organ Concertos ...

[prémont]

Agreed.
But I just had to react in a topic where both Bach AND Secretariat were mentioned!

Yes, and I certainly shall and can not blame you.

[prémont]

I believe Ton Koopman is among the very few organists, both living and dead, who have recorded both the Complete Bach Organ Works and Handel's Organ Concertos ...

From the top of my head:

Simon Preston

Lionel Rogg

Marie-Claire Alain

Peter Hurford

Walter Kraft (Bach integral and Händel opera 4 & 7)

[Coopmv]

From the top of my head:

Simon Preston

Lionel Rogg

Marie-Claire Alain

Peter Hurford

Walter Kraft (Bach integral and Händel opera 4 & 7)

Did Simon Preston ever record the Complete Bach Organ Works?  I have never seen one.  I have 6 or 7 individual CD's of Bach Organ Works by Preston ...

[prémont]

Did Simon Preston ever record the Complete Bach Organ Works?  I have never seen one.  I have 6 or 7 individual CD's of Bach Organ Works by Preston ...

Yes, released by DG some eight or nine years ago, I think.

Link:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Orgelwerke-Ges-Aufn/hnum/3160808

[Marc]

Did Simon Preston ever record the Complete Bach Organ Works?  I have never seen one. I have 6 or 7 individual CD's of Bach Organ Works by Preston ...

I think Premont refers to this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Complete-Organ-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004Y28Q

EDIT: too late!

[prémont]

But this is an integral I can not recommend without reservations.

Rather superficial brilliance most of the time in the Choral-free works,
despite interesting neo-baroque organs and good sound.

[Coopmv]

I think Premont refers to this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Complete-Organ-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004Y28Q

EDIT: too late!

I doubt I will get the set even if it is available again.  While Simon Preston is a good organist, he is just not in the same league as Helmut Walcha or Marie-Claire Alain ...

[Wanderer]

(Off-topic, but I think Heifetz plays his own cadenza as well, in the Toscanini/NBC recording [of the Beethoven violin concerto, that is].)

Regarding Beethoven's violin concerto, my preference by far would be the cadenza Beethoven himself concocted for his transcription cum piano (the one with the timpani returning to prominence); one can hear it in all its brilliance (transcribed for piano, violin and timpani) in the Kremer/Harnoncourt rendition.

[prémont]

I doubt I will get the set even if it is available again.  While Simon Preston is a good organist, he is just not in the same league as Helmut Walcha or Marie-Claire Alain ...

Can not disagree.