The Bach Cantatas

[kishnevi]

I have Gardiner, Rilling, and Harnoncourt/Leonhardt.

Also most of Herreweghe.

Gardiner is far and away my favorite.

But if you like boy sopranos, Harnoncourt might be a good choice.  I don't like them.

[jlaurson]

Hi Jens - thanks for your excellent comments on the Bach Cantatas - hard for me to imagine how one has the time to listen to multiple versions of these numerous works - YIKES! 

I have Suzuki (5 Anniversary releases, i.e. 55 discs) & the Gardiner 'mixed box' w/ 12 of 22 discs being the 'Cantatas' - then only a few discs of Herreweghe & Rilling - the latter a 2-CD set of the 'Secular Cantatas' which I enjoy - do you have a favorite interpretation of these secular cantatas?

Finally, the Koopman 67-disc box is going for $300 on Amazon USA at the moment, so not a consideration for me - I'm assuming that he did the 'secular' works - as asked above, do you like him in these performances?  Thanks - Dave

I like those secular cantatas with Rilling, too... those are among the better ones he's done. I very much like Koopman's secular cantatas, too... you find them on volumes 4 & 5 of the original (and re-issued) 3 & 4 disc sets.

http://www.challengerecords.com/products/1166022848138
http://www.challengerecords.com/products/1166022848139/

Also, search for "Bach Cantatas" on this site, to see what's out there on Antoine Marchand/Challenge... because Amazon is a mess for those sets and single releases.
http://www.challengerecords.com/search/

[SonicMan46]

I like those secular cantatas with Rilling, too... those are among the better ones he's done. I very much like Koopman's secular cantatas, too... you find them on volumes 4 & 5 of the original (and re-issued) 3 & 4 disc sets.

http://www.challengerecords.com/products/1166022848138
http://www.challengerecords.com/products/1166022848139/

Also, search for "Bach Cantatas" on this site, to see what's out there on Antoine Marchand/Challenge... because Amazon is a mess for those sets and single releases.
http://www.challengerecords.com/search/

Much thanks Jens for the information and the links - will take a look.  Dave

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Also most of Herreweghe.

Gardiner is far and away my favorite.

I have about a third of Gardiner (from the pilgrimage) and I agree it's fabulous. Probably my favorite, as well.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Rilling: Perhaps the worst complete cycle... or the most dated one. Actually, at its best, it contains Must-Have discs... but in toto, it cannot convince with the old-fashioned approach and the occasional aged singer.

At first you had me scratching my head with your "worst cycle/or most dated" assertion. "Must-have discs" though made me smile because I think I have four of those "Must-haves". They're the only four I have from his cycle and since I've long enjoyed them I didn't think I could be that off! 

Date-wise they range from 1974 to 1985. A pretty good cross-section. But I wrestle with seeing these "Must-haves" as one-offs or perhaps as being indicative of the overall quality of the cycle as a whole.

I guess I'll never know unless I spring for the entire set but could it be that Rilling's cycle is perhaps better than "worst"? These four "Must-haves" are mighty, mighty fine.

     

[kishnevi]

At first you had me scratching my head with your "worst cycle/or most dated" assertion. "Must-have discs" though made me smile because I think I have four of those "Must-haves". They're the only four I have from his cycle and since I've long enjoyed them I didn't think I could be that off! 

Date-wise they range from 1974 to 1985. A pretty good cross-section. But I wrestle with seeing these "Must-haves" as one-offs or perhaps as being indicative of the overall quality of the cycle as a whole.

I guess I'll never know unless I spring for the entire set but could it be that Rilling's cycle is perhaps better than "worst"? These four "Must-haves" are mighty, mighty fine.

   

I don't know what Jens means, but it is the most unHIP cycle, and our generation subcribes to HIP as the standard, unless a piano is involved.

I don't recall any true misses in the Rilling cycle.  I do know I did a fairly close comparison of Rilling v Harnoncourt in the Passions and other "big" choral works, and found Rilling to be consistently better.

[Jo498]

Note that Rilling shows quite a few HIP influences (in tempi and other aspects) in his 1990s re-recordings of the Passions and some other works. And he mostly has a supreme set of solo singers in those. (I do not think that he comes close to Harnoncourt in drama and rhetorics etc. but those late recordings are very good.)

His other recordings were not old-fashioned in the 1970s. I am too young to remember the 1970s in Classical music, but even I remember that HIP was considered a little odd by many listeners still in the late 1980s. In any case it was not generally accepted as the only way to play Bach etc.
So the 1970s/early 80s Rilling recordings might seem dated from today's perspective but this was not the common opinion when they came out.

As I said above, if one is interested in different approaches, the East German recordings of the 70s/80s should also be taken into account. Some of them are also slightly HIP influenced and they have male choirs, of course, but modern instruments. IIRC "Wachet auf" BWV 140 and "Ein feste Burg" BWV 80 are very good in those recordings.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I don't know what Jens means, but it is the most unHIP cycle, and our generation subcribes to HIP as the standard, unless a piano is involved.

My head starts spinning if I think too hard about the whole HIP/nonHIP thing. It's too distracting and over the decades I've found it's better to leave that to others. To me Rilling is simply good music-making. In fact, I listened to his BWV 76 just because I was jonesing for a good rendition of the work - and that soprano aria - and was blown away by the "authenticity", if you will, of the feeling, the genuineness and sincerity of the sounds he was making. Litmus test right there and really the ONLY test necessary.

I don't recall any true misses in the Rilling cycle.  I do know I did a fairly close comparison of Rilling v Harnoncourt in the Passions and other "big" choral works, and found Rilling to be consistently better.

Thanks for that. I haven't heard any of Rilling's "big" Bach. Will keep an eye out.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

As I said above, if one is interested in different approaches, the East German recordings of the 70s/80s should also be taken into account. Some of them are also slightly HIP influenced and they have male choirs, of course, but modern instruments. IIRC "Wachet auf" BWV 140 and "Ein feste Burg" BWV 80 are very good in those recordings.

Which of those East German recordings do you like for BWV 140?

[psu]

I'll put in another vote for the Rilling. I've always liked it. Maybe I already voted before, I can't remember.  😃

All that said, I just found out about the Gardiner project and it sounds interesting to explore. So that's a thing too.

[Jo498]

Which of those East German recordings do you like for BWV 140?

Rotzsch conducting with Auger, Schreier, Lorenz, rec. ca. 1984. They have been issued in several different editions, the latest is a complete box with 12 discs or so. There were at least two single CD issues, one with BWV 36 and 61 (140 is for the last Sunday in the church year, I think, but is often "co-opted" as an advent piece) with part of of clock's dial on the cover. (Another one is called "Bach - made in Germany" but maybe a different coupling)

[asin]B0000035PF[/asin]

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Rotzsch conducting with Auger, Schreier, Lorenz, rec. ca. 1984. They have been issued in several different editions, the latest is a complete box with 12 discs or so. There were at least two single CD issues, one with BWV 36 and 61 (140 is for the last Sunday in the church year, I think, but is often "co-opted" as an advent piece) with part of of clock's dial on the cover. (Another one is called "Bach - made in Germany" but maybe a different coupling)

[asin]B0000035PF[/asin]

Thanks! I'm liking the samples...

[Mandryka]

Frankly, I can't get used the sound of anything but these. I'm not an aficionado, though. To me it seems in Kuijken, the voice is another instrument - equal to the other instruments. I like that.

Listening right now to BWV 54, this comment of yours came to mind and it seems spot on.

[milk]

Listening right now to BWV 54, this comment of yours came to mind and it seems spot on.

Thanks! That beginning aria is a great one. Yeah, I don't really like smooth-sounding music or big orchestra music, usually. It's sad that series came to an end. I wonder if he'll do more one-off recordings using the same idea.   

[Marc]

Enjoying BWV 182 (Himmelskönig, sei wilkommen) with Eric Milnes and his Montréal Baroque.
Milnes is not mentioned a lot, but I think his Bach is very much worthwhile and worth considering in the 'OVPP-gang'.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Milnes.htm

[North Star]

Enjoying BWV 182 (Himmelskönig, sei wilkommen) with Eric Milnes and his Montréal Baroque.
Milnes is not mentioned a lot, but I think his Bach is very much worthwhile and worth considering in the 'OVPP-gang'.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Milnes.htm

Hear, hear!

[Marc]

Hear, hear!

OK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6h4vm8oAmA

[JaapT]

Hi, Did anyone ever point out this link: http://www.npo.nl/ntr-podium/30-01-2012/NPS_1199489.
It shows Leonhardt directing (in his quirky manner) the coffee cantata and bauern cantata. A concert organised for the Queen in 2009.
Excellent singing (van der Meel, van der Kamp and Mields) and playing by an ad hoc ensemble.

It is also nice to have the Bauern cantata by Leonhardt, which he did not record with  the OAE for Philips.

[rw1883]

This looks like a great deal:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BIS9055

Amazon is releasing it on June 10:

[asin]http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=bach+suzuki[/asin]

I'm guessing the Z-shops will have it at a lower price, but the $235 at Presto may be hard to beat.

Thoughts?

[James]

This looks like a great deal:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BIS9055

Amazon is releasing it on June 10:

[asin]B01BXWH34E[/asin]

I'm guessing the Z-shops will have it at a lower price, but the $235 at Presto may be hard to beat.

Thoughts?

Does anyone have this? Wondering how it stacks up against the other cycles out there.