The Bach Cantatas

[Que]

This set proved just that:

Discovered coffee and Bach's Cantatas at 42.



So, the tasting is in the eating!
What do you make of Rifkin's famous "one voice per part" (OVP) approach?
Does it work for you?

Q

[Bogey]

Discovered coffee and Bach's Cantatas at 42.



So, the tasting is in the eating!
What do you make of Rifkin's famous "one voice per part" (OVP) approach?
Does it work for you?

Q

You know Q, I am still new enough to these that I do not fully undestand what you mean by an OVP approach as opposed to others as I just thought that is how Bach intended these, but I can tell you I am enjoying these very much.  However, the handful of Harnocourt or Leonhardt that I own I enjoy probably a bit more.  Not so much due to the performances here on the Rifkin discs, but rather the "sound" of the recordings.  The Harnoncourt and the Leonhardt discs seem to have a cleaner more open sound to me and make me feel that I am actually there during the performances....as if I am walking into the sanctuary while the performance is on going.

Back to the OVP approach for a moment.  For this Rifkin set, is that how Bach intended them and if not, does that throw a wrench into the HIP fabric?  Just for the record, I do find the idea of HIP to be a neat thing (my wife does as well), but on the other hand, I do not let a wonderful non-HIP performance distract my enjoyment. 

Finally, is the BWV number always the same as the cantata number?

[Que]

You know Q, I am still new enough to these that I do not fully undestand what you mean by an OVP approach as opposed to others as I just thought that is how Bach intended these, but I can tell you I am enjoying these very much.  However, the handful of Harnocourt or Leonhardt that I own I enjoy probably a bit more.  Not so much due to the performances here on the Rifkin discs, but rather the "sound" of the recordings.  The Harnoncourt and the Leonhardt discs seem to have a cleaner more open sound to me and make me feel that I am actually there during the performances....as if I am walking into the sanctuary while the performance is on going.

Back to the OVP approach for a moment.  For this Rifkin set, is that how Bach intended them and if not, does that throw a wrench into the HIP fabric?  Just for the record, I do find the idea of HIP to be a neat thing (my wife does as well), but on the other hand, I do not let a wonderful non-HIP performance distract my enjoyment. 

Finally, is the BWV number always the same as the cantata number?

Bill, glad you enjoy the Rifkin, but as you know I'm an Harnoncourt/Leonhardt addict as well! 

Rifkin is very much HIP! It's just that in HIP quarters there is difference of opinion on the question if Bach intended the different parts in the chorus (tenor, soprano, etc.) to be sung by just one singer (OVP), or that a (slightly) larger number of choristers is the right way to go. Rifkin was a pioneer and staunch advocate of OVP, but most HIP conductors use larger choruses. I'm sure other forum members can elaborate further on this issue. Personally, I have no strong opinions on the matter - both ways can work IMO.

On the numbering - because the BWV numbering (most conveniently) starts with the cantatas, the cantata number is indeed the same as the BWV number. 

Q

[Bogey]

Bill, glad you enjoy the Rifkin, but as you know I'm an Harnoncourt/Leonhardt addict as well! 

Rifkin is very much HIP! It's just that in HIP quarters there is difference of opinion on the question if Bach intended the different parts in the chorus (tenor, soprano, etc.) to be sung by just one singer (OVP), or that a (slightly) larger number of choristers is the right way to go. Rifkin was a pioneer and staunch advocate of OVP, but most HIP conductors use larger choruses. I'm sure other forum members can elaborate further on this issue. Personally, I have no strong opinions on the matter - both ways can work IMO.

On the numbering - because the BWV numbering (most conveniently) starts with the cantatas, the cantata number is indeed the same as the BWV number. 

Q

Thanks...was chomping at the bit waiting for you to finish your post. 

[Bogey]

FWIW, I have 51 and 140 by Rifkin and by Leonhardt and Harnoncourt respectively.  I may do some comparing this weekend.

[Que]

... make me feel that I am actually there during the performances....as if I am walking into the sanctuary while the performance is on going.

Bill, your remark brings back fond memories of the occasions I've attended live performances of Bach's cantatas in two churches here in Leiden. Performed by amateur (HIP!) ensembles from the area, together with (young) professional singers. Of course the quality of the ensemble is not professional, but still surprisingly good, and being able to hear a performance live does more than compensate for minor blemishes. The style in which they perform is eeringly close to Leonhardt/Harnoncourt & Koopman. Don't know what it is with the Dutch, but Bach's vocal music - the Passions and the cantatas - are very, very popular here and seems to run in the blood! 

The "Hooglandse Kerk" is my favourite - perfect accoustics for Bach cantatas!



The larger "Pieterskerk":



Q

[Bogey]

Beautiful.  Just shared with the wife Q.  What a setting for this wonderful music.

[KevinP]

Bogey, give Richter's cantatas a try, preferably his older recordings.

[knight66]

Kevin, Perhaps suggest specifics? I took your suggestion of the St Matthew a long time ago; loved it.

Mike

[Bogey]

Bogey, give Richter's cantatas a try, preferably his older recordings.

Don recommended this set Kevin.  Have it on my wish list.

[Bogey]

Some truly sublime Bach on this Baker/Marriner recording...
very moving performances, I cannot recommend it highly enough!

Are these full cantatas or just excerpts James?

[KevinP]

Yeah, I was vague for a reason: I went the box set route with Richter and knew that that wouldn't be a welcome recommendation.

However, I do have the 2CD DG set (needed it for a profane cantata that wasn't in the sacred set) so I will recommend that one along with Don.

[KevinP]

Richter is dismissed as a dinosaur by HIP purists and indeed he did resist the HIP movement. But, in a way, he was a precursor to it. He was the first to scale back forces (compare his to Klemperer's) which allowed him to take faster tempi.

Wanna say more but we're getting ready for a wedding and my wife's telling me I really need to get ready.

[knight66]

Are these full cantatas or just excerpts James?

A mixture, there are two full solo cantatas, Ich habe genug being one, then an LP full of Bach arias accompanied by Baremboim. The second disc is finished off with two complete Handel Italian cantatas. These performances were out of circulation for years when CDs arrived. I wrote to EMI specifying them and asking when they would produce them on CD. I got a dismissive letter saying that the felt the EMI catalogue was more than adaquately represented by Miss Baker's art. Several years later they appeared on a double disc on Double fforte. I would never part with them, beautiful performances all.

Another disc of Bach sung by Baker is Cantata 170, it is on Decca and she pulls off a tender performance that I think is unequaled. Not HIP, but all of the performances speak directly with enormous skill.

Mike

[M forever]

The "Hooglandse Kerk" is my favourite - perfect accoustics for Bach cantatas!

Have you ever heard Bach here?

[Que]

No, unfortunately not yet!
Would love to visit the Thomaskirche some time.

Q

[M forever]

You can also visit Bach when you are there. He is under the metal plate.

[71 dB]

Recently the prices of Suzuki Volumes have gone up in Amazon.co.uk Marketplace (Vol. 24 £19.99!). Maybe I just give up collecting the rest of them.  Tangerine Dream is sucking all my money...

[knight66]

Tangerine Dream is sucking all my money...

Well, that's one way of putting it.

Mike

[Don]

Richter is dismissed as a dinosaur by HIP purists and indeed he did resist the HIP movement. But, in a way, he was a precursor to it. He was the first to scale back forces (compare his to Klemperer's) which allowed him to take faster tempi.

Wanna say more but we're getting ready for a wedding and my wife's telling me I really need to get ready.

Hope the wedding is enjoyable.  Agree fully with your assessment of the Richter.