The Bach Cantatas

[jlaurson]

Karl Richter - 75 Cantatas - Archiv
Since this was one of the Christmas offerings, I've been listening to 15 (!) (of 26) CDs of this set in the last 40 hours. Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Easter, Pentecost all covered. It's a throwback, of course, to pre-OVPP times, but it's amazing how high the quality of these recordings are. With very few exceptions (the tenor in BWV 147), the singers are superb, the chorus perfect throughout, the playing also. Given the kind of stuff that was put on disc during those years and before, it's little wonder these recordings made such a splash when they came out.

And all that on top of: listening to Montreal Baroque / Eric Milnes' latest issue (61, 122, 123, 182), Christmas Oratorios with Harnoncourt (new recording) and Kurt Thomas (Leipzig, 1958 - not all that), Suzuki's volume no.35 (not the biggest R.Blaze fan, but good stuff, as always), James Bowman / King's Consort re-release of alto cantatas, and a "routine listening" of the superb Veldhoven Mass in b-minor. Oh, yes, and Herreweghe's latest Bach, too.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Well, the recording was netted in my Christmas gifts.  Will give a full listen tomorrow.

[marvinbrown]

Congratulations from me, too, Marvin. I haven't contributed to this thread, mainly because I haven't explored Bach's cantata's much at all myself (with a few exceptions--Peasant, Coffee, et al). But may I ask that you report which of the Harnoncourt & Crew performances you find most satisfying? Reason: I just learned that my public library has copies of most of this series, and I wouldn't mind letting my own discovery of these works follow the experience and recommendations you can provide in listening to your new set. Many thanks in advance--and again...enjoy!

Cheers,

Dirk

  Hi Dirk, I'll bet you never dreamed in a million years that I would be responding to your post now.  4 months after I purchased the complete Bach sacred cantatas Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set I finally got the opportunity to sit down and listen to it.  Beethoven, Wagner  0:) 0:), Brahms and other composers have kept me busy and away from Bach during these past months  . 
 
  Now about the cantatas, I have started listening chronologically from cantata 1 onwards and am currently listening to disk 6 Cantatas 17-19. Dirk  you can not imagine the immense pleasure I am having with this set.  Every cantata I have heard thus far from this set had something special to offer. From what I have heard I found that no two cantatas are identical!  It is unbelievable!  Some of the highlights are cantatas 1, 4, 5, 8, 11 (this cantata draws on the Angus Dei melody of Bach's Mass in B minor which is delightful and that chorus accompanied by the up beat horn instrument at the end of cantata 11  is to die for!!), 12, 13, 17 and 19. 

  The Leonhardt/Harnoncourt team uses an all boys choir as Bach had intended.  These are HIP recordings bustling with energy and authenticity.  There is a rawness to the recordings that I find very appealing and earnest.  Yes EARNEST was the word that I used to describe to Que  in my PM to him my impressions of these recordings.  I would recommend that you explore as much of these recordings as you possibly can.  Bach was a deeply religious man and his devotion to The Messiah  0:) certainly brought out the best in him. Whether it is a chorus line, a soprano or bass aria, an up beat or sad horn accompaniment to a chorus or solo aria I think you will find something special and worthwhile in practically every cantata.  This has certainly been the best purchase I have made in 2008  0:):

 

  PS:  anyone living in London this set can be had for £100 at HMV! Cheaper than any amazon.co.uk marketplace seller price!

      marvin

[rickardg]

I've read this thread a couple of times and I'm still feeling overwhelmed with all the alternatives.  So, dear lazyweb, please recommend me a handful of cantata discs that work well musically and also serve as a 'Bach Cantata Starter Kit', giving an overview of the works and the approaches to them.

I've already got Gardiner's Christmas disc (vol 14), two of Coin's issues on Naive and another Christmas special issue of Herreweghe with BWV 63 "Christen, ätzet diesen Tag" and the Magnificat BVW 243a, thus far I prefer Herreweghe's, but not by a large margin.

[jlaurson]

I've read this thread a couple of times and I'm still feeling overwhelmed with all the alternatives.  So, dear lazyweb, please recommend me a handful of cantata discs that work well musically and also serve as a 'Bach Cantata Starter Kit', giving an overview of the works and the approaches to them.

These are the first four BACH Cantata discs I'd recommend to anyone who has not already developed a very narrow taste-preference.
Herreweghe's "reasonable-HIP" you already know. Kuijken is "radical HIP" (OVPP and minimal forces), but really grows on me. More than most Suzuki, indeed. Rilling is reasonably HIP-informed but on modern instruments and not too HIP-influenced. Lieberson's Bach is a simply the epitome of wistful beauty.

All are sublime.


J. S. Bach, Cantatas BWV 12, 38, 75,
P. Herreweghe, C.Sampson (!) et al.
Review



J. S. Bach, Cantatas BWV 82, 199
C. Smith, L.Hunt-Lieberson (!)
Review that mentions it



J. S. Bach, Cantatas BWV 17, 35, 164, 17
S. Kuijken v.5



J. S. Bach, Cantatas BWV 210, 211
H.Rilling ("Secular Cantatas)

Also: Quasthoff/Kussmaul, BWV 82 (doubling up with above!), 56 (should be had just for the closing chorale--among the finest Bach ever wrote), 158 Wonderful modest-scale, non-HIP performances of great cantatas and a characteristic "front singer".

Koopman, Secular Cantatas, BWV 211 (doubling up with above), 212, 202 Koopman is "moderate HIP". Not always the most outstanding soloists in his cycle, but just when one thinks he's been outranked by other cycles, I come back to Koopman to find him more generally enjoyable than expected... and despite some individual lesser moments and fewer heights than, say, Suzuki (Sampson!), it's a more consistently delighting body of work than, to my ears, said Suzuki or Harnoncourt (the birth-pangs of HIP still painfully audible).

Richter, Fischer-Dieskau et al., BWV 56, 82 (both doubling up with above), 4. Very different style, obviously, and although I find K.Richter more impressive still in the big choral works, some of his Cantata recordings do belong in a good Bach collection. I, for one, love them.

[Marc]

[....]
Herreweghe's "reasonable-HIP" you already know.
[....]


J. S. Bach, Cantatas BWV 12, 38, 75,
P. Herreweghe, C.Sampson (!) et al.
Review

Herreweghe is indeed a fine Bach performer.
My personal favourite is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Cantatas-BWV-125/dp/B0011BF570

There's no Carolyn Sampson here, but Deborah York will do.
And there's an amazing performance, by everyone involved, of the first aria (second movement) of BWV 125. Every time I listen to it, I'm lifted up and it seems I'm no longer part of the earth .... der Welt abhanden gekommen ....
You have to experience these eight minutes to actually believe it!

About your BWV 12 et al review:
AFAIK, BWV 12 is originally not a 1723/1724 cantata. Its first performance was on April 22nd, 1714, in Weimar. With a few alterations it was again performed in Leipzig, April 30, 1724.
Bach also reworked the magnificent opening chorus to include it in the Crucifixus movement of the Credo in the Mass in B Minor. (But my guess is you already know that. )

There is so much to enjoy in this repertoire. IMHO, Bach's cantatas are a guarantee for a lifelong satisfaction. Therefore, I hope I still have many years to live!

[Que]

These are the first four BACH Cantata discs I'd recommend to anyone who has not already developed a very narrow taste-preference.
Herreweghe's "reasonable-HIP" you already know. Kuijken is "radical HIP" (OVPP and minimal forces), but really grows on me. More than most Suzuki, indeed. Rilling is reasonably HIP-informed but on modern instruments and not too HIP-influenced. Lieberson's Bach is a simply the epitome of wistful beauty.

All are sublime.

(...)

Koopman is "moderate HIP". Not always the most outstanding soloists in his cycle, but just when one thinks he's beenhad

OK Jens!  "reasonable-HIP", "radical-HIP", "moderate-HIP", "reasonably HIP-informed but on modern instruments and not too HIP-influenced"?? I'm lost....

Herreweghe is HIP, so is Koopman, so is Kuijken. OVPP is not radical in my opinion but just an approach which, apart from the academic debate whether it is the only way, has it merit and is in any case another way to go at it. I share your liking for Kuijken BTW, as your reservations on Suzuki.

Rilling is not HIP, period. And pretty awful if you ask me....
But he has his fans, also on GMG.

Q

[Bulldog]

Herrewegh is HIP, so is Koopman, so is Kuijken. OVVP is not radical in my opinion but just an approach which, apart from the academic debate whether it is the only way, has it merit and is in any case another way to go at it. I share your liking for Kuijken BTW, as your reservations on Suzuki.

Rilling is not HIP, period. And pretty awful if you ask me....
But he has his fans, also on GMG.

Considering how long OVVP has been on the scene, I agree that it is not a radical approach.  Concerning Rilling, I don't have much good to say and much prefer the Naxos recordings conducted by Muller-Bruhl.

Herreweghe is my favored Bach cantatas conductor, followed closely by Suzuki, Kuijken and Rifkin.

[jlaurson]

Herreweghe is HIP, so is Koopman, so is Kuijken. OVPP is not radical in my opinion but just an approach which, apart from the academic debate whether it is the only way, has it merit and is in any case another way to go at it. I share your liking for Kuijken BTW, as your reservations on Suzuki.

Sure they all are, but if we are only looking at HIP recordings (and most modern ones, perhaps all, are), then further distinctions could be helpful. And Josh Rifkin, Sigiswald Kuijken, Jos van Veldhoven, John Butt, and esp. Konrad Junghaenel
are not in any way the same kind of HIP
as
Ton Koopman, Philip Herreweghe, John E. Gardiner et al. They are the "Wolff--HIPsters", the former are the "Rifkin gang"

Rilling is not HIP, period. And pretty awful if you ask me....
But he has his fans, also on GMG.

I don't think Rilling is awful, and often he's got great singers... his Christmas Oratorio I even find superb... but De Gustibus...
Certainly not HIP, of course, but already a step away from Scherchen-, Solti-, Karajan-, and even Richter-Bach.

[marvinbrown]

Herreweghe is my favored Bach cantatas conductor, followed closely by Suzuki, Kuijken and Rifkin.

  Don  no mention of Leonhardt/Harnoncourt  ??

  marvin

[Bulldog]

  Don  no mention of Leonhardt/Harnoncourt  ??

  marvin

Can't say I've ever really immersed myself in that cycle, so I don't bring it up.

[Bulldog]

Sure they all are, but if we are only looking at HIP recordings (and most modern ones, perhaps all, are), then further distinctions could be helpful. And Josh Rifkin, Sigiswald Kuijken, Jos van Veldhoven, John Butt, and esp. Konrad Junghaenel
are not in any way the same kind of HIP
as
Ton Koopman, Philip Herreweghe, John E. Gardiner et al. They are the "Wolff--HIPsters", the former are the "Rifkin gang"

Although I certainly notice the differences between those two groups, I don't find them at opposite ends of the spectrum.  Probably because I love them both, and my bottom-line preferences concern period instrumentation and minimal or no vibrato.

[Que]

Sure they all are, but if we are only looking at HIP recordings (and most modern ones, perhaps all, are), then further distinctions could be helpful. And Josh Rifkin, Sigiswald Kuijken, Jos van Veldhoven, John Butt, and esp. Konrad Junghaenel
are not in any way the same kind of HIP
as
Ton Koopman, Philip Herreweghe, John E. Gardiner et al. They are the "Wolff--HIPsters", the former are the "Rifkin gang"

Ah. I make other distinctions/divisions.  For instance, Herreweghe and Kuijken are IMO actually close in style, notwithstanding that Kuijken opts for OVPP, and add Christophe Coin and Philippe Pierlot to that little list. Suzuki and his former teacher Koopman are closer to the style of Leonhardt and that of Harnoncourt.

I don't think Rilling is awful, and often he's got great singers...

Absolutely, he often uses very fine singers indeed.

Q

[jlaurson]

Although I certainly notice the differences between those two groups, I don't find them at opposite ends of the spectrum.  Probably because I love them both, and my bottom-line preferences concern period instrumentation and minimal or no vibrato.

Well, I certainly would not want to encourage that only because performers can be categorized along musico-ideological lines, we should fall in and align our likes along those lines, too. I like whatever is good, no matter what went in to it. I love Richter, I love Herreweghe, I love Veldhoven, I like Koopman, and I am really starting to like the new Kuijken mini-cycle. I am not yet very much enchanted by Suzuki, I admit... and although I adore Gardiner and his SDG efforts, I think the actual performances are (vastly?) overrated.

And I must say that I have a difficult time including Herreweghe and Veldhoven in the "camps", even if they fit. They don't seem ideological in their performances at all. (Perhaps that's why I like them so much... or perhaps I think that because I like them so much. Chicken, Egg.) Rifkin and Koopman, however, can be pitched against one another very neatly. Ditto Gardiner vs. Butt. Showdown in B-minor! Only on Pay-per-Listen.

[rickardg]

Thanks for your interesting viewpoints. Particularly the Hunt Lieberman/Quasthoff solo disks weren't on my radar before, very tempting since I like those singers already.

Any opinons on Rifkin himself on Double Deccas for a OVPP take? They sound OK to me from the 30 sec online samples and the price certainly is right.

What I've gleaned of Suzuki's cantatas from borrowed disks it doesn't really grab me either, I can't put the finger on why though. A pity since I very much wanted to like them, being BIS and all.. The Gardiner cantata pilgrimage is a great idea and the Christmas disc I've got is pleasant enough, but I do prefer Herreweghe. The packaging is superb though, and if I'd been into Bach when they started chances are I'd have subscribed, Gardiner's small essays are like a blog in print. Did they do a documentary on the recordings? That would have been interesting, a Bach reality soap... :-)

Anyway, I'm fretting over an order from MDT right now, and it will certainly include a healthy dose of Herreweghe's Bach. This'll be fun...

[71 dB]

Suzuki for me.  0:) Soon, in February I will order another one...

[Marc]

Ah. I make other distinctions/divisions.  For instance, Herreweghe and Kuijken are IMO actually close in style, notwithstanding that Kuijken opts for OVPP, and add Christophe Coin and Philippe Pierlot to that little list. Suzuki and his former teacher Koopman are closer to the style of Leonhardt and that of Harnoncourt.

Ah. Now this could lead to an interesting discussion, IMHO. But I also say this because all those discussions about it should be OVPP versus no, it should not have become very tiresome to my ears.

If only I had more time to discuss!
Apart from that, I've chosen to listen some more to the music lately, and leave the discussions up to the wiser people.

In short: I kinda agree with the way you divide, but do not entirely agree with your choice of 'divisions'. For instance, I think that Coin is far more inspired by Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, and this also goes for Kuijken. Their approach is still some sort of a contribution to the music as speech point of view. (At least, that's how I hear it. These are all subjective matters, OK?)

Funny enough, I think Koopman has grown towards Herreweghe far more during the years, and so did Suzuki. Their swing sounds more 'round' (Suzuki beats Koopman in this, I think), and their performances seem to be more inspired by a vocal-singing approach, which maybe makes this music more acceptable to 20th/21nd century ears. I really don't know how else to put it. But to me, they lack that 'Herreweghe-warmth', so in the end it's still Philippe pour moi. IMHO, he's the one who's reached the ideal balance between 'reciting music' and 'melodious beauty'. Too bad that he decided not to do the complete cantatas. But hey, the man loves all music, so why only be a Bach-freak?

I do agree with jlaurson that Van Veldhoven, though he claims to be converted by the OVPP-approach - which, of course, doesn't interest me at all -, is somehow a league of his own. And I don't really know what to think of him, if I really like his recordings or not. He can make such odd choices, like the tempi for the tenor cantatas in the Johannes-Passion. He must have studied a lot more about baroque music than I have , but when I listen to these I can't help but thinking the guy really doesn't have a clue what Bach is composing about.
I am, as you can witness, an arrogant bastard.

[jlaurson]

Ah. Now this could lead to an interesting discussion...

Funny enough, I think Koopman has grown towards Herreweghe far more during the years, and so did Suzuki.

In what way have these come closer toward Herreweghe?  Does that also mean they (Koopman & Suzuki) have come closer together? Because the latter I can't really hear. I have not heard Koopman live very often lately (and not with his ABO), and most his recordings are from a while back [on that note: Anyone know the recording dates of the pieces on the Challenge Release "Latin Church Music v.1"??] so that a movement toward P.H., and by extension Suzuki, would be difficult to determine for me. As per Suzuki, I've heard him only once, live... (bit of a disappointment: Review), and I have most of the BIS discs in the '20s' and '30s'... which scarcely lived up to my (too) high expectations.

Too bad that he decided not to do the complete cantatas. But hey, the man loves all music, so why only be a Bach-freak?

Is there such a decision? Was there ever the plan to record all of them in the first place? And who cares as long as he'll keep recording them while he's active as a conductor. Better keep the high standards he's had so far and record only 120 cantatas than rush things, sacrifice some of that excellence, and give all of the cantatas to us, some at 90% or less.[/quote]

I do agree with jlaurson that Van Veldhoven, though he claims to be converted by the OVPP-approach - which, of course, doesn't interest me at all -, is somehow a league of his own.

Having heard his Matthew Passion live (review, the review ends up understating how great a night that was) and finding his Mass in B-Minor my (current) favorite recording (review), I find him completely enthralling. I am certainly looking forward to hearing cantatas with him.

[Marc]

Funny enough, I think Koopman has grown towards Herreweghe far more during the years, and so did Suzuki.

In what way have these come closer toward Herreweghe? Does that also mean they (Koopman & Suzuki) have come closer together? Because the latter I can't really hear.

When I heard the first Suzuki recordings, I was very pleased with the strong rhythmic differentiations. They made me think of the young Koopman. (Living in the Low Countries has given me the opportunities to listen to mr. K. more often, especially on broadcast, which I did quite a lot when I was younger myself. I heard him live only once, with Mozart.)
During the years, it seems to me that Suzuki's approach has become more 'widened' and less 'straight', less European/Lutheran/Protestant, so to speak. I don't mind about that, the fact that I like them all enriches my senses, although it costs me loads of money.
About Koopman & Herreweghe: they are both of the same generation, and have stated more than once that they were great admirers of Leonhardt/Harnoncourt (Herreweghe and his Collegium Vocale Gent did work a lot with Harnoncourt in the 'earlier' years). But after some time they more or less went their own ways, with more room for the singing qualities of Bach's music, and less strict according to the L/H 'HIP-doctrine'. If there ever was such a doctrine, of course. But in my experience, the L/H cycle is far more 'reciting' than any other one.

BTW, these 'statements' of Koopman & Herreweghe (especially the latter) were made f.i. in Dutch magazines and books about the Bach-traditions of Naarden and Amsterdam. Too bad that these works never have been translated into English (AFAIK).
But I'll give you the titles anyway:
Maurits Schmidt, Het geheim van Naarden, 1988.
C.M. Schmidt et al, De Matthäus Passion - 100 jaar passietraditie van het Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest, 1999.

Considerations like the above of course don't mean necessarily that they all sound more or less the same. It wouldn't surprise me if Suzuki's career is a bit comparable with Koopman's. Suzuki once was a pupil of Koopman, they exchanged and shared a lot of insights, and after his study Suzuki developed these insights into a more personal interpretation, I guess. Like Koopman and Herreweghe developed themselves in earlier times, after they were influenced by Leonhardt/Harnoncourt.

Again: all these different approaches make me a rich man .... [etc.] Maybe it's completely useless to divide all these interpretations into groups. Yes, come to think of it: maybe it's only useful to people who can't help they want to talk about music so much. So that they, at least, can create their own issues to talk about. Hence this board.

Too bad that he decided not to do the complete cantatas. But hey, the man loves all music, so why only be a Bach-freak?

Is there such a decision?

In the nineties, both Koopman and Suzuki started their complete cycles, and Herreweghe kept making lots of cantata recordings. Bach/Herreweghe admirers and journalists asked him several times: are you planning to do a complete cycle, too? And Herreweghe said: NO! Reasons: he only made recordings of the cantates he was very much attracted to. With Rilling, Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, Koopman and Suzuki (and Leusink [Brilliant] and Gardiner preparing it), he thought there was enough choice in complete cycles. It would take too much of his time, and he would have been 'forced' to concentrate mainly on Bach for at least 10 years of his life, while he wanted to play a lot of other music, too.

Was there ever the plan to record all of them in the first place?

See above. I don't think so. Maybe his record company at some time, because he got so many positive reviews. (And sales figures?)

And who cares as long as he'll keep recording them while he's active as a conductor. Better keep the high standards he's had so far and record only 120 cantatas than rush things, sacrifice some of that excellence, and give all of the cantatas to us, some at 90% or less.

I totally understand what you mean. I shouldn't care, especially because his standard remains high.
To me, for instance, Leusink's cycle is a bad example of rushing things. A complete cycle recorded in about 14 months! That's simply not possible, and his cycle is the proof.
Nevertheless, I would have preferred a complete Herreweghe cycle to a complete Suzuki, Koopman or Gardiner. Just because I like Herreweghe's approach more. That's why I care. It's strictly personal .
Although I do think there are more Herreweghe fans around the world.

About Van Veldhoven: I'm also glad he's there, too. I felt lucky and priviliged to go to a concert of his reconstruction of Bach's Markus-Passion in 1986, I'm glad he made a reconstruction of the 1724 Johannes-Passion, and I like his Weihnachts-Oratorium. I also like the way he makes his basso continuo groups play, and the richness of their sound. In most cases, I think he's a joy to listen to, but still, Herreweghe is my favourite.

And Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, well, to me they are heroes.
They gave me Bach and strengthened my love for his music when I was a young adolescent. The way they played Bach touched me in a special way, as if Bach was talking to me directly. It's not easy to explain such a mystery, but I think it has a lot to do with their music as speech approach.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

...but when I listen to these I can't help but thinking the guy [Veldhoven] really doesn't have a clue what Bach is composing about.

I'd say Veldhoven puts his personal stamp on Bach but that's a far cry from "doesn't have a clue".

I have his Christmas Oratorio and St. John Passion and find them wonderful.

Herreweghe's more sullen style is my overall preferred in Bach but I find Veldhoven a nice counterweight.