The Bach Cantatas

[robnewman]

This astounding cantata. Full of joy, celebration and dance -

J.S. Bach
"Gott der Herr ist Sonn und Schild",
Reformation Celebration
BWV 79/1
Opening Chorus
Bach Collegium Musicum and Thomanerchor Leipzig
Hans Jochim Rotzsch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmio2ZdUm_A

[jlaurson]

Without any doubt Suzuki is a great director, who understands deeply this music.

I have not any argument against him, but a totally subjective preference for Leonhardt/Harnoncourt and the Koopman's cycle.  

With a pseudonym like Antoine Marchand, you would like Koopman's cycle better.  

But I agree, actually. I had much coveted the Suzuki cycle when I owned nothing of it... and took for granted my Koopman cycle, of which I have a good deal (but not all).

Now that I have a fair amount of the Suzuki canatas, I must say that I respect them... but I don't love them. Some I find truly excellent, but that's usually because of a particular singer. Nothing wrong with Suzuki, either... just leaves me cold. Koopman, on the other hand, although perhaps not achieving as uniform a standard of excellence (the same would certainly be true of the audibly earlier LoeHarn recordings which I'm not a big fan of) as Suzuki, is one whole-cycle-option that I appreciate more and more, the more I listen to it again.

Speaking of not appreciating as much as it's made out to be: How about admitting that Gardiner's cycle is awesome in principle but hardly the last word in Bach Cantatas? 

If I had to broadly name a favorite by pointing to a conductor, rather than individual recordings, it'd be Herreweghe who almost unfailingly excites me. And, lo and behold, the new Kuijken 1-year cycle on Accent SACDs. Very enjoyable--despite, because, or irrelevant of being total-OVPP-HIP.

Re: Franco: I'm really, really impressed with those. I didn't think I would, because I'm not particularly keen on the OVPP ideology (and it seems to be that, at teims, rather than purely-honest musical or scholarly pursuit)... but they are just truly exceptional. Very moving performances. I have volumes 1-7 (No. 8 too, but I haven't yet listened), and I am looking forward to every new issue.

[Franco]

And, lo and behold, the new Kuijken 1-year cycle on Accent SACDs. Very enjoyable--despite, because, or irrelevant of being total-OVPP-HIP.

I purchased Vols 1 and 8 of this series and found them very enjoyable.  I am glad someone else has discovered them, I had posted a couple of times asking about them but yours has been the first response.

I plan on filling the gaps and continuing with getting these as they come out.

Now I wish when I bought a new preamp that I had gone ahead and gotten the 5.1 system instead of the stereo ... but I'm not about to buy another preamp so soon after investing in my relatively recent indulgence.

[robnewman]

If I was to recommend one series above all others of the Bach cantatas my choice would be the HÄNSSLER Series. With few exceptions this is the most wonderful series I've heard as a whole.  And yes, there are some superb other recordings. Closely followed by various cantatas recorded by Masaaki Suzuki in Japan and some superb individual recordings by La Chapelle Royale under Philippe Herreweghe. And of course there's Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque. (Over the years I've grown to love and admire Ton Koopman's work and that of the Amsterdam Baroque more and more).

[Coopmv]

If I was to recommend one series above all others of the Bach cantatas my choice would be the HÄNSSLER Series. With few exceptions this is the most wonderful series I've heard as a whole.  And yes, there are some superb other recordings. Closely followed by various cantatas recorded by Masaaki Suzuki in Japan and some superb individual recordings by La Chapelle Royale under Philippe Herreweghe. And of course there's Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque. (Over the years I've grown to love and admire Ton Koopman's work and that of the Amsterdam Baroque more and more).

The HÄNSSLER Series must be recorded by Helmut Rilling with his Bach-Collegium Stuttgart.  No?

[robnewman]

The HÄNSSLER Series must be recorded by Helmut Rilling with his Bach-Collegium Stuttgart.  No?

Yes, Coopmv,

That's the series. There are so many wonders of that series. But it's tough to judge any series above another. Bach's music has so many levels of interest all I tend to look for is precision/clarity. Muffled recordings are the worst of all. The Hanssler series  (Rilling/Bach-Collegium Stuttgart) is often marvellous for this reason.

I would rate these Bach cantatas as amongst the very greatest body of musical works ever written by anyone in any form. Up there with the very best, for sure.

Regards

[Coopmv]

Yes, Coopmv,

That's the series. There are so many wonders of that series. But it's tough to judge any series above another. Bach's music has so many levels of interest all I tend to look for is precision/clarity. Muffled recordings are the worst of all. The Hanssler series  (Rilling/Bach-Collegium Stuttgart) is often marvellous for this reason.

I would rate these Bach cantatas as amongst the very greatest body of musical works ever written by anyone in any form. Up there with the very best, for sure.

Regards

I may have some Bach cantatas by Rilling on LP.  On CD, I only have the St Matthew Passion on Hanssler and a highlight from a much older recording on Sony. Many of his Bach cantatas included Christine Schäfer.  No?

[robnewman]

I may have some Bach cantatas by Rilling on LP.  On CD, I only have the St Matthew Passion on Hanssler and a highlight from a much older recording on Sony. Many of his Bach cantatas included Christine Schäfer.  No?

Yes, exactly ! Christine Schafer has a truly wonderful voice. I note her teachers were amongst the very best. Arleen Augér and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, for example.

[Coopmv]

Yes, exactly ! Christine Schafer has a truly wonderful voice. I note her teachers were amongst the very best. Arleen Augér and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, for example.

Arleen Augér was probably the best native-born soprano the US has ever produced.  I have many of her CD's.  I have a DVD on some Advent program by Bach conducted by Harnoncourt and she was one of the soloists ...

 

[robnewman]

Arleen Augér was probably the best native-born soprano the US has ever produced.  I have many of her CD's.  I have a DVD on some Advent program by Bach conducted by Harnoncourt and she was one of the soloists ...

 

Oh, yes ! - She (Arleen Auger) had one of the most wonderful voices I've ever heard.

Here is Christine Schafer -

Cantata BWV 147/3
Aria
Bereite dir, Jesu, noch itzo die Bahn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIDRf-YlQVc&feature=related

[Coopmv]

Arleen Augér was probably the best native-born soprano the US has ever produced.  I have many of her CD's.  I have a DVD on some Advent program by Bach conducted by Harnoncourt and she was one of the soloists ...

 

I really meant to say Christine Schäfer was on this DVD by Harnoncourt.  I gave the impression that it was Arleen Augér  ...

[robnewman]

I really meant to say Christine Schäfer was on this DVD by Harnoncourt.  I gave the impression that it was Arleen Augér  ...

OK fine.

[robnewman]

Cantata 180
Opening Chorus
BWV 180/1
Oregon Bach Festival Chorus and Orchestra
Oregon Bach Festival, USA
Live Performance

June 1984

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34CDOP26qI

[Coopmv]

Cantata 180
Opening Chorus
BWV 180/1
Oregon Bach Festival Chorus and Orchestra
Oregon Bach Festival, USA
Live Performance

June 1984

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34CDOP26qI

Was the performance conducted by Helmut Rilling?

[robnewman]

Was the performance conducted by Helmut Rilling?

According to the notes on Youtube Rilling prepared the performance, but it was conducted by his student for this live radio broadcast. Its tempo is wonderful, I think.

[Antoine Marchand]

And, lo and behold, the new Kuijken 1-year cycle on Accent SACDs. Very enjoyable--despite, because, or irrelevant of being total-OVPP-HIP.

Re: Franco: I'm really, really impressed with those. I didn't think I would, because I'm not particularly keen on the OVPP ideology (and it seems to be that, at teims, rather than purely-honest musical or scholarly pursuit)... but they are just truly exceptional. Very moving performances. I have volumes 1-7 (No. 8 too, but I haven't yet listened), and I am looking forward to every new issue.

It was funny to read these angry answers by Leonhardt about the OVPP issue:


You've now mentioned the topic twice, so I must take up the challenge and ask for your views on the most controversial current aspect of Bach performance, the question of one-to-a-part Bach choirs.
Luckily, the question can be answered in one word. There are hundreds of things we do not know about Bach's performances or wishes, but this we do happen to know. The idea that in Leipzig, which is the main place at issue, Bach wanted a choir of single voices to a part is rubbish. It is complete rubbish! We have in Bach's own handwriting his requirements of a minimum of three singers for each voice.


But surely that was an ideal, rather than a fact?
It was an ideal and maybe he didn't always get that ideal, but remember Bach was also responsible for the performance of the motet. Many motets were in eight parts, so with a double chorus they could still be done. But for the cantatas, he said he wanted three singers to each part. The adherents of this idea claim that you cannot have three singers reading from a single part. Of course they can! Look at Della Robbia, for instance, with angels looking over each other's shoulder at the music and there are many more examples from the Renaissance. It is ridiculous that even intelligent people have fallen into this trap, which I simply cannot understand. Of course, the economic consequences have something to do with it. Think of the difference in the cost of air tickets and hotel bills, for instance!

(Ouuch, Sigiswald!)

From "An Interview with Gustav Leonhardt", Early Music World (originally in Goldberg Early Music Magazine).

Here the complete interview:
http://www.earlymusicworld.com/id2.html

[jlaurson]

But surely that was an ideal, rather than a fact?
It was an ideal and maybe he didn't always get that ideal, but remember Bach was also responsible for the performance of the motet. Many motets were in eight parts, so with a double chorus they could still be done. But for the cantatas, he said he wanted three singers to each part. The adherents of this idea claim that you cannot have three singers reading from a single part. Of course they can! Look at Della Robbia, for instance, with angels looking over each other's shoulder at the music and there are many more examples from the Renaissance. It is ridiculous that even intelligent people have fallen into this trap, which I simply cannot understand. Of course, the economic consequences have something to do with it. Think of the difference in the cost of air tickets and hotel bills, for instance!

(Ouuch, Sigiswald!)

From "An Interview with Gustav Leonhardt", Early Music World (originally in Goldberg Early Music Magazine).

Those are precious quotes that resonate with me very much. Thanks for putting them up here.

It reminds me a.) of a half-serious quip that Rosalyn Tureck replied to a similar question with: "Oh, Josh*? He just wants to save money."

(* Rifkin)

and b.)  it reminds me of how I wasn't advanced from the subsidiary (mass-singing and chorale duty) choir into the concert choir on one occasion because I was reading the music from the two chaps in front of me, instead of my own... too lazy to hold my own set up when I could so conveniently look over the two front-men's little shoulders. In choir (a 1000 year old institution) we always shared the note material, both in concert and in rehearsal... (albeit between two, not three boys).
For economic reasons alone, they would not have copied or printed a set of notes for each singer back then. I'm not saying that that's proof that OVPP is bull... I'm just saying that using that argument as proof for OVPP is bull. OVPP is a hypothesis, with strengths and weaknesses and it should be judged by the results and in any case not be considered gospel.

[robnewman]

J.S. Bach
Aria
'Schlummert ein'
Cantata 82
David Daniels - Counter Tenor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-6BI2p7UW4&feature=related

[The new erato]

BIS has now released the first 30 discs in Suzuki's cycle in 3  10 CD limited edition boxes at around 28 £ per box on mdt.

[jlaurson]

For those (apparently quite a few) of this forum who read German:

http://www.klassikinfo.de/Bach-Kantaten-mit-Sigiswald-Ku.816.0.html



English review (not just a translation, actually...) up on WETA within the week.

"Meine Seufzer, meine Tränen"

Johann Sebastian Bach: "Cantatas - Vol.8
La Petite Bande. Leitung, Sigiswald Kuijken
Accent ACC25308

Bei den Ausmaßen der verschiedenen Zyklen von Bach Kantateneinspielungen - dutzende CDs, zum Teil hunderte Kantaten - sind es die Gesamteindrücke, die bleiben, mehr denn Impressionen einzelner Werke. Und die sind, selbst bei wechselnden Sängerbesetzungen, erstaunlich gleichbleibend. Auf audiophilen Accent SACDs plant Sigiswald Kuijken einen Ein-Jahres Zyklus, die dem "One-Voice-per-Part" Stil folgen. Die Theorie dahinter kann man mögen, oder nicht... es greift Duke Ellingtons Diktum: Wenn es gut klingt, ist es gut. Und die Resultate bei Kuijken klingen zum verlieben gut. [weiter]