The Bach Cantatas

[knight66]

BTW, I left out a very important conductor of this subgenre of classical music, Herreweghe.  After having blown him off for a while, I finally started to collect his recordings in earnest.  The goal is to get all the passions by him and to start on the cantatas by midyear next year.  If my investments cooperate, this can happen even earlier ... 

We are all different, but your way of collecting, like jewels to be looked at rather than living art works to be encountered, has always puzzled me. You seem to have loads you have not listened to. Possessing seems to be enough. When you do listen, I hope for some authoritative opinions from someone with so much 'product' in specific genres. But you confine yourself to a sentence here or there about the general quality of the discs. I wish you would give us a few more inches; though I know that such a thing is not always provided without pain. 

Mike

[The new erato]

I have given up on giant boxes, I never get through them. This way, buying slowly, I am getting to grips with the pieces and differing styles of performance. No one conductor covers all the bases with these inexhaustible works.


Mike

Actually that is my feeling as well. But if it has to be giant boxes, then I prefer them to be focused on at consistent series of works, like the Bach cantatas, etc, rather than a complete composer package, or even worse, a complete performer set. My preferred modus operandi is to collect selected works combined with a complete set. That way, you get them all - collecting single discs always will leave nooks and crannies - as well as choice performances of favorite works.

[Frellie]

Volume 8 of Pieter Jan Leusink on Brilliant. Five CDs for £3.83. I am sure they have to be worth rather more, even if just to get me going on some cantatas that I just don't know. But while waiting for them to arrive; has anyone any opinions either on this volume or this series generally?

Mike

The cantatas on the Brilliant set have been recorded in a great hurry, and the music bears the sour fruits of that haste. I would not recommend them, except perhaps in order to get to know the cantatas a bit more, before buying more expensive recordings.

The recordings by Suzuki (which can be bought pretty darn cheap these days) are much more polished and sound gorgeous. Try for example the Suzuki #8, with the incredible cantatas BWV 22, 23 and 75, and compare for yourself. For a more historically informed performance, Koopmans cycle is the preferred choice. But those cd's are stilll very expensive.


I own both the (running) Suzuki cycle and the Koopman cycle, along with the very recommendable Herreweghe recordings, and find that combination to be very satifying.


Gardiner is doing some very great things too, but his interpretations sometimes differ greatly from the mainstream, so I wouldn't recommend that cycle as a primary collection.

[The new erato]

We are all different, but your way of collecting, like jewels to be looked at rather than living art works to be encountered, has always puzzled me. You seem to have loads you have not listened to. Possessing seems to be enough. Mike

Big sets can be overwhelming, nearly paralyzing. Jeezus, how can I get through this? Better put it in the back to avoid a bad conscience.

I generally listen to everything I buy. Even the 35 CD set of Brendel on Brilliant, which provided me with lots of Eureka! moments even in music I didn't think I'd enjoy. That set served a purpose.

There are a few exceptions to listening to everything though. If it's a larger box set, I tend to listen to works I don't know already, or to performances that particularly interests me. There is no shame in not playing everything in a big box, at todays prices you can buy a box if 1/3 of it interests you and still save money, not to mention shelf space compared to single discs. To buy without even the intention (or hope) of listening however seems a waste.

But the road of discovery which is a strong part of exploring classical music is better served by single discs. Big sets aren't (for me) for in general discovery, though Brendel nearly proved me wrong, but rather for dotting the i's and crossing the t's in your collection. I'm buying Gardiners Bach cantatas disc by disc, particularly seduced by the superb packaging, rather than hoping for a cheap, complete set sometime....regardless that I already have all the cantatas..... and a superb trip it is.

[knight66]

Frellie, Thanks. Perhaps I will be lucky and get some of the best if the overall cycle is patchy. Certainly once my appetite is whetted, I will feel justified by the tiny outlay for the Brilliant discs to duplicate the ones I especially like with better performances. I have about half a dozen double sets of the Gardiner pilgrimage and enjoy them a great deal; for sure much more than his Bach of 20 years ago.

Not all of the soloists manage quite the expressiveness I look for, but there are always compensations and Gardiner's need to teach the audience is given a superb outlet with his linear notes.

Erato,

I have been tempted to subscribe to the full Gardiner set; but I know I would fall behind and sometimes pay mere lip-service as they plopped through he door and were consigned to the shelves.

I agree, single discs: just today I have ordered Symphony 4 by Joly Braga Santos because of the advocacy here and I am looking forward to sounds new to my ears.

Mike

[Franco]

I have been happy with the Brilliant set, knowing of course that it is not the best.  

I lean more towards the idea of avoiding complete sets if you are interested in finding very good recordings of specific works - but if your goal is to familiarize yourself with a large canon of works by a composer, e.g. the Bach cantatas (a groups of works I was generally unfamiliar with), then buying piece meal is just about impossible since you are faced with literally hundreds of works and (at least I) are stuck wondering where to begin.  Using the Brilliant set as a source group, I am going through it disk by disk, rather slowly, but finding those individual numbers that I want to find done by other groups.

For this purpose I find the Brilliant boxes a very good value since while the performances are rarely "the critically thought of as best" they are rarely bad, and inexpensive enough so that I think the cost:benefit is a worthwhile investment.

[jlaurson]

For this purpose I find the Brilliant boxes a very good value since while the performances are rarely "the critically thought of as best" they are rarely bad, and inexpensive enough so that I think the cost:benefit is a worthwhile investment.

For those of us who collect with a librarian element in mind (being able to go to the shelves whenever a work comes to mind and finding at least one version), the Brilliant-Leusink Bach is not just adequate, it's excellent. The rest can be handled with personal favorites. Among them is almost always Philippe Herreweghe, whose Bach I admire and adore; ditto his attitude about recording all Cantatas. (Which is roughly: "No need; I focus on those I like best")
Among the recordings I have that are, or will be, complete cycles, I find Koopman getting the highest marks on average, of not the necessarily the highest on any given cantata. Suzuki has those... but I'm strangely not (yet) all that enthused with his general approach. Gardiner I enjoy not unlike Koopman, but since I have higher expectations of him, I seem to be more stern in my judgement. Rilling is like Leusink, except in an old-fashioned way and sometimes with superb singers. Among incomplete and to-be-incomplete cycles, I love both Karl Richter and--although interpretively dramatically different--Kuijken.

[Que]

Leusink, Suzuki, Koopman, Herreweghe, Kuijken, Gardiner...and not a word about the marvelous set by Harnoncourt & Leonhardt.

I've put in a good word for this set many times, let my point out this time a damn good review by American harpsichordist Peter Watchorn. Please excuse my copy-paste form Amazon.com!


The Greatest of all Bach Cantata Recordings, November 8, 2008
By Peter G. Watchorn (Cambridge, MA USA)


I first wrote this review in 2003 for the previous incarnation of this set. I see that it is now down to under $250 in its new compact format. When I acquired the original LP sets (with scores) between 1971 & 1989 the cost was over $1,300. It is still the greatest and most powerful recording in existence of these works, for, with its various blemishes, it contains the most eloquent musicianship of the pioneers of the Early Music revival from Vienna and Amsterdam. The blemishes are important too, as they eloquently document the rapid development of skills necessary to realise one of the leading musical ideas of our time: attempting to get as close as possible to the actual sounds the composers heard when they wrote their music. As a next-generation member of this fraternity (I am a professional harpsichordist, organist and co-director of several, and have worked with many of the people on these recordings. I have also written a major biography of one of the members of the generation before Leonhardt & Harnoncourt, the Viennese harpsichordist Isolde Ahlgrimm), I can only reiterate even more strongly what I wrote five years ago and urge lovers of Bach to acquire this set immediately. Here is my original review:

Had this set not been made, then the history of performance practice in the last quarter of the 20th century and beyond would have proceeded very differently. Had this set not been made we would not have many of the current leading figures in the field of early music performance, nearly all of whom were in some way connected with the performance revolution which found its most profound expression in these recordings. For it was during the 14 or so years of this recording project (between 1971 and 1985) that three of the greatest musicians of our time, Gustav Leonhardt, Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Frans Bruggen forever altered the public's perception of the surviving remnants of Bach's fabled, but rarely heard, "Jahrgaenge", or yearly cycles of church cantatas. For this reason alone, this recording is of profound importance. Leonhardt, with his consort in Amsterdam, and Harnoncourt, with his Concentus Musicus of Vienna shared the task of recording, with an unmatched team of vocal and instrumental soloists, Bach's roughly 200 surviving "concerti sacri", perhaps a further hundred being lost to us. It was a repertoire more honoured in the history books than experienced in performance. This enterprise changed that state of affairs for ever.

The arguments which are now sometimes made (chiefly by those who are unaware of the extraordinary and revolutionary step which these performances represented), decrying the slightly "raw" (I prefer "vocal") sound of original instruments, or the occasional shakiness of a boy soprano soloist, miss the point of this enterprise, which was to present the music in a new way using Bach's own contemporary resources. Leonhardt and Harnoncourt are the first to insist that using "historical instruments" makes sense because those are simply the best tools for the job. Re-constituting something old has never been their aim. Rather, their idea was to break free of the mindless tradition of performance which took no account of the sounds that Bach actually had in his head when he created his "well-regulated" music for the churches of Saxony. And how does this work in practice? We are left to marvel at an extraordinary level of accomplishment on the part of nearly everyone associated with this project, vocally and instrumentally.

Gustav Leonhardt was well aware (and hopeful) that subsequent generations would likely improve upon aspects of performance which still remained to be sorted out. But, as he said, it was a start. Indeed, when he and Harnoncourt were jointly awarded the Erasmus prize in the Netherlands in 1980, he remarked, with singular modesty and self-awareness: "It was not done well, but it is remarkable that it was done at all". This tells us more about Leonhardt's famous humility, than it does about the standards of these performances, which are usually (with few exceptions) very high indeed. In many instances they will never be surpassed. What we have here is a glimpse of one of music's "golden" ages captured forever on disc. What the listener will marvel at is the extraordinary assuredness of technique and style which is evident in every one of these cantata performances.

The solo vocal contributions of Kurt Equiluz, Max van Egmond, Paul Esswood, Marjanne Kweksilber (BWV 51) are simply without equal, and the current generation of fine Bach singers would be the first to concede their enormous debt to the participants in this great enterprise (their teachers, in many cases). The choirs should also be singled out for attention: Wiener Sangerknaben, Tolzer Knabenchor, Hannover Knabenchor, Choir of Kings College, Cambridge as well as directors Heinz Hennig, Gerhard Schmidt-Gaden, Philippe Herreweghe, David Willcocks and Hans Gillesberger. So Europe's finest were all involved in this.

The instrumental soloists: Frans Bruggen, Walter van Hauwe, Kees Boeke, Anner Bylsma, Jurg Schaftlein, Lucy van Dael, Sigiswald, Wieland and Bart Kuijken, Ton Koopman, Bob van Asperen, Lidewij Schiefes, Alice Harnoncourt, Herbert and Herwig Tachezi, Erich Hobarth, Friedemann Immer - to list only the more familiar names - have created a whole world of intelligent and vital performance which has transformed musical thought in our time. No-one in any area of musical performance has remained untouched by the ideas which are so forcefully presented here (even those who'd be the last to admit it). The fundamental idea of treating each period's music as a vital and representative product of its time is one which now extends to music of all periods, signaling the fulfilment of one of Leonhardt's and Harnoncourt's chief aims: to eliminate the artificial distinction between mainstream and "early" music, and, instead, to treat all music with proper respect for its origins and context.

What this recording continues to offer the listener is the experience of hearing the music for the first time, which the technical polish of subsequent surveys cannot quite match. For the young person wishing to learn about music, there is no better starting point than investing in this set, now available at a fraction of its original cost (unfortunately, minus the scores, which were one of the hallmarks of this series in its first incarnation on LP.

It seems pointless to list highlights, but one might start with the following: BWV 1, 6, 8, 11, 13, 19, 23, 29 and so on. The list is endless. Better still, buy the set and begin a life-time's voyage of discovery instead. Bach, Leonhardt and Harnoncourt: you can't do better than that. Oh, and we should also acknowledge the contribution of the founder recording producer for this project, Wolf Erichson (even though he didn't stay with Teldec to the end of it). Without him, the revolution in informed and intelligent music performance on recordings would never have happened.

2008: At its new price and in its new format, this set is now within reach of everyone who loves Bach's music, eloquently performed by the greatest specialist musicians of our time. One of the pinnacles of recording.

Peter Watchorn (2008 & 2003)

[Antoine Marchand]

... American harpsichordist ...

Well, Australian-American to be fair. 

[Que]

Well, Australian-American to be fair. 

Point taken!

Q

[Coopmv]

The cantatas on the Brilliant set have been recorded in a great hurry, and the music bears the sour fruits of that haste. I would not recommend them, except perhaps in order to get to know the cantatas a bit more, before buying more expensive recordings.

While I agree with your general assessment of the BC set - it was rushed out.  However, there are some exceptions.  A number of cantatas actually have some excellent singing by Ruth Holton, who should be no stranger to people who are familiar with the cantatas by Gardiner ...

[Antoine Marchand]

Point taken!

Q

BTW, thanks for posting that superb review of a superb musician!  

[Coopmv]

Big sets can be overwhelming, nearly paralyzing. Jeezus, how can I get through this? Better put it in the back to avoid a bad conscience.

I generally listen to everything I buy. Even the 35 CD set of Brendel on Brilliant, which provided me with lots of Eureka! moments even in music I didn't think I'd enjoy. That set served a purpose.

There are a few exceptions to listening to everything though. If it's a larger box set, I tend to listen to works I don't know already, or to performances that particularly interests me. There is no shame in not playing everything in a big box, at todays prices you can buy a box if 1/3 of it interests you and still save money, not to mention shelf space compared to single discs. To buy without even the intention (or hope) of listening however seems a waste.

But the road of discovery which is a strong part of exploring classical music is better served by single discs. Big sets aren't (for me) for in general discovery, though Brendel nearly proved me wrong, but rather for dotting the i's and crossing the t's in your collection. I'm buying Gardiners Bach cantatas disc by disc, particularly seduced by the superb packaging, rather than hoping for a cheap, complete set sometime....regardless that I already have all the cantatas..... and a superb trip it is.

We have much in common in our collection style.  Big boxes are generally not my preferred approach to collection.  A case in point - I collected all 6 volumes of Krebs Organ Works by John Kitchen on the Priory label and that Volume 4 has been next to impossible to find until I started checking out BRO, which had the CD available for the princely sum of $2.99.  I bought the Karajan Symphony Edition simply to get my hands on the Bruckner collection, whose price I have been unwilling to pay, though the 77 beethoven cycle is like icing on cake since I only have the latter on LP.  I decided against buying the Brahms set on DG since I do not like the lieders.  I will just compile my own Brahms lieders.  To sum it up, I only make target purchase of big box.

[Harry]

Anyway...anyone out there with knowledge of the Brilliant set?

Mike

Mike, they are considering the speed with which it was recorded, reasonably good, not top notch, but neither something to be ashamed about.
For the money its a bargain any day.

[Coopmv]

Mike, they are considering the speed with which it was recorded, reasonably good, not top notch, but neither something to be ashamed about.
For the money its a bargain any day.

That was exactly my rationale when I bought the box almost 2 years ago ...

[Marc]

Anyway...anyone out there with knowledge of the Brilliant set?

Mike

Definitely not my cup of tea.
Above average, IMHO: most of the instrumentalists, soprano Marjon Strijk, altus Sytze Buwalda (you have to like his typical voice, though, and I don't, actually, but he knows what he's singing about), tenor Marcel Beekman and bass Bas Ramselaar.
Disappointing: soprano Ruth Holton (very insecure singing & bad German pronouncation, was performing much better with Gardiner), tenor Nico van der Meel (apparently not in good shape, sounding too rushed, only above average in recitativos), tenor Knut Schoch (a disaster, I have to say), and the choir (trying to sound like a tight British choir, but above mezzoforte their singing sounds more like shouting).
About Leusink's interpretations: IMHO, nothing special really, though nothing really wrong with it, either.
Personally, I prefer Harnoncourt, Leonhardt, Herreweghe, Koopman, Suzuki, Kuijken, Gardiner, Rifkin, Coin and Daniel Taylor (et cetera et cetera) in this oeuvre.  

[Frellie]

Leusink, Suzuki, Koopman, Herreweghe, Kuijken, Gardiner...and not a word about the marvelous set by Harnoncourt & Leonhardt.

Noted! I didn't mention this cycle because, in my opinion, it has been outclassed by contemporary cycles. It's an antique, and as such of course extremely interesting.

Peter Watchorn makes a good point: it's a hallmark cycle. And throughout the review, he strikes a tone of nostalgia. I'm sensing his argument is not that the Har&Len cycle is in all respects the best one around, just that we shouldn't forget the importance it has in the history of Bach cantata recordings.

Well, its place in that history is on a big pedestal, no doubt. But its achievement has been bettered.

[Edit] I feel like adding that there is of course only so much one can say about 'outclassing'. A great deal has got to do with shifting tastes, and different points of attention. As for me, especially the sometimes cautiously slow tempi and the less fluent musical flow are what make the H&L recordings less easy to enjoy than, say, those by Suzuki or Gardiner. Listen for example to the opening of BWV 62, as recorded by H&L. To my ears, that sounds a bit too studied, too contrived.

[Que]

Noted! I didn't mention this cycle because, in my opinion, it has been outclassed by contemporary cycles. It's an antique, and as such of course extremely interesting.

Peter Watchorn makes a good point: it's a hallmark cycle. And throughout the review, he strikes a tone of nostalgia. I'm sensing his argument is not that the Har&Len cycle is in all respects the best one around, just that we shouldn't forget the importance it has in the history of Bach cantata recordings.

Well, its place in that history is on a big pedestal, no doubt. But its achievement has been bettered.

[Edit] I feel like adding that there is of course only so much one can say about 'outclassing'. A great deal has got to do with shifting tastes, and different points of attention. As for me, especially the sometimes cautiously slow tempi and the less fluent musical flow are what make the H&L recordings less easy to enjoy than, say, those by Suzuki or Gardiner. Listen for example to the opening of BWV 62, as recorded by H&L. To my ears, that sounds a bit too studied, too contrived.

Well, I have to disagree.  I do not think the Harnoncourt & Leonhardt set has been bettered upon, and I have heard performances by practically all "newcomers". Amongst those I prefer the Belgians: Kuijken (Accent), Herreweghe (HM) and Pierlot (Mirare).

Some things are just splendid - and remain that way....

Q

[Antoine Marchand]

Amongst those I prefer the Belgians: Kuijken (Accent), Herreweghe (HM) and Pierlot (Mirare).

Nice to see the Ricercar Consort & Pierlot mentioned here. Apparently they have not had a big sucess among the GMGers.

Some monts ago I wrote a fervent tribute to their superb last disc of cantatas - which includes three beautiful early cantatas: BWV 131, 182, 4 -, but unfortunately nobody was interested in it.   

[Coopmv]

Well, I have to disagree.   I do not think the Harnoncourt & Leonhardt set has been bettered upon, and I have heard performances by practically all "newcomers". Amongst those I prefer the Belgians: Kuijken (Accent), Herreweghe (HM) and Pierlot (Mirare).

Some things are just splendid - and remain that way....

Q

Q, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.
We need to get away from the mentality that newer is always better.  We had this debate in the Handel's thread where some members who feel Marc Minkowski is better than John Eliot Gardiner or Christopher Hogwood simply because he is a newer face.  I subsequently bought a few recordings by Minkowski and I have noticed no evidence he is perceptibly better than Gardiner or Hogwood.  We are talking about performance arts here, we are not talking about cars.