The Bach Cantatas

Started by Que, April 08, 2007, 01:51:45 AM

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jlaurson

Quote from: Frellie on November 08, 2009, 11:00:13 AM
Noted! I didn't mention this cycle because, in my opinion, it has been outclassed by contemporary cycles. It's an antique, and as such of course extremely interesting.

Peter Watchorn makes a good point: it's a hallmark cycle. And throughout the review, he strikes a tone of nostalgia. I'm sensing his argument is not that the Har&Len cycle is in all respects the best one around, just that we shouldn't forget the importance it has in the history of Bach cantata recordings.

Well, its place in that history is on a big pedestal, no doubt. But its achievement has been bettered.

Bettered in many a sense. The playing, alone, has come a long, long way. That's not to say these recordings haven't still a lot to offer (and Frellie certainly doesn't say that), but there are qualitative improvements  from newer versions to these that are very hard to miss.

Que

Quote from: jlaurson on November 08, 2009, 04:42:51 PM
Bettered in many a sense. The playing, alone, has come a long, long way. That's not to say these recordings haven't still a lot to offer (and Frellie certainly doesn't say that), but there are qualitative improvements  from newer versions to these that are very hard to miss.

Well Jens, I hear you.  :)

But I had these recordings first and foremost as interpretations in mind. And in that sense - stylistically and as an approach to Bach's cantatas - I do not think they have been bettered upon, though there are some very (sometimes equally) good other recordings around. To my mind Harnoncourt & Leonhardt's recordings channel directly into the heart and soul of these works, they never fail to engage me.

Naturally in terms of technique - in playing and recording - things have moved on since these recordings were made.

Q

Que

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 08, 2009, 02:40:07 PM
Nice to see the Ricercar Consort & Pierlot mentioned here. Apparently they have not had a big sucess among the GMGers.

Some monts ago I wrote a fervent tribute to their superb last disc of cantatas - which includes three beautiful early cantatas: BWV 131, 182, 4 -, but unfortunately nobody was interested in it.  :-\ 

Oh, you never know! :)

I did invest in two issues a while ago. I think they are excellent and very interesting/ different, considering the competition. Very finely grained, maybe a bit on the precious side, but wonderfully detailed and balanced, sufficiently articulated. The result is a exquisitely rich but transparent sound picture. On occassion slightly mixed feelings on some of the singers, mainly on account of their German and the projection of the content of the texts. I may attempt more elaborate comments, if time permits.

 

Q

The new erato

The Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cycle is a monument in Bach recordings and should be owned by anyone with an interest in Bach performance. But what should be mentioned is that the cycle is quite variable in quality (in my opinion); and yes; playing technique on old instruments has come a long way the last 30 years. But again, it's a monumwent, and at its best (eg cantata 21) easily holds its own against anything newer.

Frellie

Quote from: Que on November 08, 2009, 10:47:32 PM
But I had these recordings first and foremost as interpretations in mind. And in that sense - stylistically and as an approach to Bach's cantatas - I do not think they have been bettered upon, though there are some very (sometimes equally) good other recordings around.

[...]

Naturally in terms of technique - in playing and recording - things have moved on since these recordings were made.

I agree! Although I do find some choices in the interpretations debatable, especially in the tempi department.

With outclassing, I meant in particular the overall quality of the playing, the recording, the instruments, and - yes! - the tempi. However, I'm also susceptible to the argument that one can actually overpolish the cantatas.

I'm interested in the Pierlot recordings. Will order one soon. It's always refreshing to hear a stilistically different version of old chestnuts like the BWV 106. In my collection, the very precious BWV 106 by Konrad Junghänel serves that goal. Especially because he uses a one-voice-per-part choir, which is historically incorrect, but feels very intimate and reveals more of the musical texture.


knight66

Thanks to those who commented on the Brilliant issue. A surprise about Ruth Holton, I had hoped she would be one of the virtues of the set. I will report back eventually.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

marvinbrown

Quote from: erato on November 08, 2009, 11:33:26 PM
The Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cycle is a monument in Bach recordings and should be owned by anyone with an interest in Bach performance. But what should be mentioned is that the cycle is quite variable in quality (in my opinion); and yes; playing technique on old instruments has come a long way the last 30 years. But again, it's a monumwent, and at its best (eg cantata 21) easily holds its own against anything newer.

  I feel the same way as you do erato about the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set.  There is a raw earnestness about that set that has me coming back for more.  It is I believe as close to the intentions of Bach as we are ever going to get, having an all boys chorus. 

  marvin

knight66

Not clear what happens there with the soloists; but in the Harnouncourt/Leonhardt versions of the Passions from 35 years ago, the soprano solos were sung by boys. I think this is a fairly hopeless gesture towards authenticity. How can a lad convey the aspects of faith that Bach stitches into those arias? Skating across them using a semi-capable technique undermines them. Most adults can't get to the heart of these complex meditations. In context I think boys are hopeless in these pieces. Perhaps adults are used in teh cantatas, I have not looked into it.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Coopmv

Quote from: knight on November 09, 2009, 01:46:32 PM
Not clear what happens there with the soloists; but in the Harnouncourt/Leonhardt versions of the Passions from 35 years ago, the soprano solos were sung by boys. I think this is a fairly hopeless gesture towards authenticity. How can a lad convey the aspects of faith that Bach stitches into those arias? Skating across them using a semi-capable technique undermines them. Most adults can't get to the heart of these complex meditations. In context I think boys are hopeless in these pieces. Perhaps adults are used in teh cantatas, I have not looked into it.

Mike

I am convinced had the Christian church tradition at Bach's time allowed women to perform publicly, he would have used women vocalists instead of boys.

knight66

Well, whether or not that is the case, I prefer the extra layers that an adult soprano can bring to this music; also the very best technique is needed. Bach leaves no where to hide if you have faults in your technique. I thought the boys palid, breathy in some cases and conveying little meaning with the words. Gentling your way nicely round the arias does not cut the mustard for me.

But I understand people settling for the full on all-male versions; it depends on what you are looking for.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Marc

Never underestimate the empathy of a child. :)

For instance: check out and compare the contributions of Ruth Holton (Leusink) and the boy soprano Ansgar Pfeiffer (Leonhardt) in the aria "Doch bin und bleibe ich vergnügt" of Cantata BWV 150 Nach dir, Herr, verlanget mich. Who's getting nicely one's way around?

And there are other very good boy sopranos in the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt integral, like Sebastian Hennig, Peter Jelosits and Helmut Wittek.
If you really think that these children can't be as 'meaningful' as adult women, my gentle advice would be: just listen once (twice, thrice, ....) more. :)

knight66

Marc, I wondered who would come back on me about this; I can't really argue, as I don't have the specified discs. I did however get rid of the Passions in the all male versions specifically because I felt the boys failed to live up to the music.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

The new erato

#392
Quote from: knight on November 09, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
Marc, I wondered who would come back on me about this; I can't really argue, as I don't have the specified discs. I did however get rid of the Passions in the all male versions specifically because I felt the boys failed to live up to the music.

Mike
The boys are variable of course, but at their best have a "wide eyed innocence" that suits the music at times to a degree that no grown up can ever hope to achieve. At their worst they are merely charming.  ;) I have actually occasionally more problems with some of the male soloists, countertenors have come a long way since the 70-ies.

My favorite Schutz disc as well is an old Archive disc of Kleine Geistliche Konzerte with soloists from the Tølzen Knabenchor that is heartbreaking to a degree that absolutely NO Schutz discs I've ever heard are even close to achieving (and I have tons of discs, he is my favorite German baroque composer beside Bach and Handel).

knight66

Yes, I agree with all of that first paragraph. Innocence can indeed hit the spot occasionally. And I confirm that I found some of those early countertenors a trial; especially going directly from the likes of Fassbaender or Baker.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

The new erato

Quote from: knight on November 09, 2009, 11:41:33 PM
Yes, I agree with all of that first paragraph. Innocence can indeed hit the spot occasionally. And I confirm that I found some of those early countertenors a trial; especially going directly from the likes of Fassbaender or Baker.

Mike
If we consider the cantatas simply as sung music, with no regard for style or content of the text, we should all simply run and buy all the Richter discs we can lay our hands on. I have about half of his recordings, and they are magnificent on that level. But I seldom play them....

knight66

#395
Not quite sure what you are saying there. For myself, I find that quite a range of approaches work. In part it depends on the mood that I am in. I am certainly looking for a lot more than all the notes in the right places. But I don't think any generation has held the totality of how these pieces can be squeezed to yield their best. Some of the older recordings get to the heart of it, despite overblown orchestral sounds and slow tempi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcEqZWRypGw

Beside this I find Gorne rather bland.

Mike

Edit: Sorry, can't carry on for a few days, I will be away from home and the Net.
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

KevinP

Quote from: erato on November 09, 2009, 11:46:54 PM
If we consider the cantatas simply as sung music, with no regard for style or content of the text, we should all simply run and buy all the Richter discs we can lay our hands on. I have about half of his recordings, and they are magnificent on that level. But I seldom play them....

Richter can be a little inconsistent. His earlier recordings are wonderful but the later ones, somewhat lacking. However, at this best, they are *the* best cantatas in my collection. I have his complete 'incomplete cycle.'

Coopmv

Quote from: knight on November 09, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
Marc, I wondered who would come back on me about this; I can't really argue, as I don't have the specified discs. I did however get rid of the Passions in the all male versions specifically because I felt the boys failed to live up to the music.

Mike

Mike,  I am with you there.  I definitely prefer some female soloists over an all-male cast.  Had there not been Emma Kirkby, Judith Nelson and Carolyn Watkinson, I would not have enjoyed Christopher Hogwood's Handel Messiah since Hogwood used an all-male choir.  The DVD, which was recorded in the Westminster Abbey a few years after the original recording was made, clearly illustrates my point. 

Marc

Quote from: knight on November 09, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
Marc, I wondered who would come back on me about this; I can't really argue, as I don't have the specified discs. I did however get rid of the Passions in the all male versions specifically because I felt the boys failed to live up to the music.

Hi Mike,

No problem of course. Different people have different opinions and taste.
Your opinion sounds familiar to me, because some time ago I thought I felt the same way. But more and thorough listening to various recordings of Bach's vocal works convinced me that some adult singers are either badly coached or maybe feel that they don't need no coaching anymore.
My opinion is, that Leonhardt and Harnoncourt (in co-operation with the chorus masters) did a magnificent job with 'their' boys in the Teldec church cantata cycle. They took their time of course (around 15 years), and f.i. Leusink didn't have that time. Still, without coaching I really think that a singer like Ruth Holton is rather shallow in this oeuvre, despite her attractive and crispy boyish voice. Mind you, Gardiner did a much better job and in his recordings she's really moving me with her BWV 140 & 147 contributions.

About getting rid of some passions: one thing I'm sure of, the all-male Leonhardt set of the Matthäus-Passion will NEVER leave da house! All plus and minors considered, I think this is the best SMP I've yet listened to. It's a sermon, and it gets me (a non-believer, btw) immensely involved in the music and the story.

premont

Quote from: Marc on November 10, 2009, 12:07:21 PM
About getting rid of some passions: one thing I'm sure of, the all-male Leonhardt set of the Matthäus-Passion will NEVER leave da house! All plus and minors considered, I think this is the best SMP I've yet listened to. It's a sermon, and it gets me (a non-believer, btw) immensely involved in the music and the story.

Are you talking about the first Harnoncourt version (Telefunken)? Well Leonhardt played continuo in that recording.  But Leonhardts own wersion (DHM) uses female singers.
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