The Bach Cantatas

Started by Que, April 08, 2007, 01:51:45 AM

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Marc

Quote from: premont on November 10, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
Leonhardts own wersion (DHM) uses female singers.

Perhaps because you have a wersion, and I have a version? ;D
Sorry to say, but my Leonhardt/DHM recording has got:
- the male singers of La Petite Bande
- the Tölzer Knabenchor
- Prégardien, Van Egmond, boy soprano soloists, Jacobs, Cordier, Schäfer (MARKUS), Elwes, Mertens and Lika.
Maybe some of them went to surgeon later, but at the time (around 1990) they were all male, AFAIK. ;)

Well, of course I remain silent about the ladies in the orchestras ....

Coopmv

While this recording is clearly non-HIP, it has some of the most beautiful duets ever sung in Cantata No. 140 - Mein Freund ist mein - with the great Elly Ameling ...




Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 10, 2009, 01:09:31 PM
Perhaps because you have a wersion, and I have a version? ;D
Sorry to say, but my Leonhardt/DHM recording has got:
- the male singers of La Petite Bande
- the Tölzer Knabenchor
- Prégardien, Van Egmond, boy soprano soloists, Jacobs, Cordier, Schäfer (MARKUS), Elwes, Mertens and Lika.
Maybe some of them went to surgeon later, but at the time (around 1990) they were all male, AFAIK. ;)

Well, of course I remain silent about the ladies in the orchestras ....

But La Petite Bande with Sigiswald Kuijken also used female soloists in some of their more recent recordings ...

premont

Quote from: Marc on November 10, 2009, 01:09:31 PM
Perhaps because you have a wersion, and I have a version? ;D
Sorry to say, but my Leonhardt/DHM recording has got:
- the male singers of La Petite Bande
- the Tölzer Knabenchor
- Prégardien, Van Egmond, boy soprano soloists, Jacobs, Cordier, Schäfer (MARKUS), Elwes, Mertens and Lika.
Maybe some of them went to surgeon later, but at the time (around 1990) they were all male, AFAIK. ;)

Well, of course I remain silent about the ladies in the orchestras ....

You are right, it is Leonhardt´s  b-minor mass which uses female singers for the arias (Isabelle Poulenard and Guilmette Laurens). Excuse my slip of memory.

Morale (for me only) : Consult your shelves before posting here.

Thought provoking though, that he uses boy soprano for the SMP and female soprano for the Mass.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Marc

Quote from: Coopmv on November 10, 2009, 01:18:05 PM
But La Petite Bande with Sigiswald Kuijken also used female soloists in some of their more recent recordings ...

No kidding. Kuijken has used female singers already from the very start. But Gustav Leonhardt only used the male singers of Kuijken's choir for his SMP recording. That was the issue between Premont and yours truly,

Marc.

Post scriptum: I somehow knew that Premont was referring to the Leonhardt recording of Bach's Grand Mass. But I felt this naughty desire to punish him basso profundo!
;D

Marc

About using boys in soprano/alto parts: of course one should realize that in Bach's days, in general, a boy's voice didn't break before the age of 17 or 18 (which is 12 or 13 nowadays).

There is some difference between a 17-year old adolescent who's thorougly taught in Lutheran belief and in music (a.o.) and a 20th or 21st century 12-year old boy who lives in an age of decreasing church visiting and little Bible knowledge (again: generally speaking).

That makes it much more difficult nowadays to use a child for the soprano and alto parts.
One can perform Historically Informed, but a lot of talk about true authenticism is, if I may say so, plain rubbish.

The times they-are-a changin'.

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Marc on November 10, 2009, 03:09:28 PM
One can perform Historically Informed, but a lot of talk about true authenticism is, if I may say so, plain rubbish.

Leonhardt says something similar in an interesting INTERVIEW:

"You've now mentioned the topic twice, so I must take up the challenge and ask for your views on the most controversial current aspect of Bach performance, the question of one-to-a-part Bach choirs.

"Luckily, the question can be answered in one word. There are hundreds of things we do not know about Bach's performances or wishes, but this we do happen to know. The idea that in Leipzig, which is the main place at issue, Bach wanted a choir of single voices to a part is rubbish. It is complete rubbish! We have in Bach's own handwriting his requirements of a minimum of three singers for each voice".

;D

Coopmv

#407
Quote from: Marc on November 10, 2009, 03:09:28 PM
About using boys in soprano/alto parts: of course one should realize that in Bach's days, in general, a boy's voice didn't break before the age of 17 or 18 (which is 12 or 13 nowadays).

There is some difference between a 17-year old adolescent who's thorougly taught in Lutheran belief and in music (a.o.) and a 20th or 21st century 12-year old boy who lives in an age of decreasing church visiting and little Bible knowledge (again: generally speaking).

That makes it much more difficult nowadays to use a child for the soprano and alto parts.
One can perform Historically Informed, but a lot of talk about true authenticism is, if I may say so, plain rubbish.

The times they-are-a changin'.

I think most of the discussions so far have ignored the fact that women were just not allowed to perform religious works in public (especially in a church) in Bach's time.  Bach simply could not use women in his cantatas or passions, period.

Marc

#408
Of course I am familiar with that fact.
But then we would be discussing a so-called historical truth, and I must admit that such a discussion wasn't my intention, although I did mention the historical truth about the breaking-of-voices myself.

I didn't live in Leipzig around 1725, so what could I say about this historical truth? I only read about some (plausible) facts, hypotheses and possibilities, and the scholars, connaisseurs and informed performers all seem to differ in their opinions and conclusions (see also posting Antoine Marchand).

What I wanted to discuss (only), at first, was the idea that boys wouldn't be up to the task to sing Bach. That's what has been suggested in this thread, and that's what I don't agree with (exceptions not included of course). I mentioned the historical truth about the breaking-of-voices because I think it's true that the boys in Bach's time were more up to the task of meaningful interpretations. They were older and more filled with the apt educational, cultural and religious environment.

And, but that's another thing, I also wanted to add some thoughts about my idea that singers nowadays (adults and non-adults) who didn't grew up in a (more or less) 'German' environment nor in a Lutheran/protestant/Christian culture, seem to have difficulties with the meaning of Bach's cantata texts. Of course this isn't their fault and they're certainly not to blame (and the 'apt environment' of the 18th century is all part of the past), but it means, IMHO, that a thorough and proper coaching is needed, and in (some?) cases I think this is rather superficially done.
I love Ruth Holton's voice, and the boy soprano (Connor Burrowes) who sang in the reconstructed Markus-Passion (Goodman/re-issued on Brilliant) did have a gorgeous singing voice, but somehow I get the idea that they do not have a clue what they're actually singing about. And I don't have that idea when I listen to the majority of boys in the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cycle. In such cases I'm willing to accept the fact that 'adult beauty' can not be reached. Their contributions do have another certain intense charm and effect though.

But hey, that's only my opinion/taste.
Anyone who prefers the Leusink/Holton soprano performances: please, be my guest and enjoy them! :)

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 11, 2009, 12:47:46 AM
I love Ruth Holton's voice, and the boy soprano (Connor Burrowes) who sang in the reconstructed Markus-Passion (Goodman/re-issued on Brilliant) did have a gorgeous singing voice, but somehow I get the idea that they do not have a clue what they're actually singing about. And I don't have that idea when I listen to the majority of boys in the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cycle. In such cases I'm willing to accept the fact that 'adult beauty' can not be reached. Their contributions do have another certain intense charm and effect though.

But hey, that's only my opinion/taste.
Anyone who prefers the Leusink/Holton soprano performances: please, be my guest and enjoy them! :)

Ruth Holton voice, its purity was what grabbed my attention when I first heard this recording she made with Gardiner.  If she did not come across as equally convincing in the BC set, I would put the blame on the conductor.  How can the same and not inexperienced soloist put in excellent performance in one recording and put in lackluster performance in another?


Bulldog

Quote from: Coopmv on November 13, 2009, 06:34:31 AM
Ruth Holton voice, its purity was what grabbed my attention when I first heard this recording she made with Gardiner.  If she did not come across as equally convincing in the BC set, I would put the blame on the conductor.  How can the same and not inexperienced soloist put in excellent performance in one recording and put in lackluster performance in another?

That can easily happen, just as a baseball slugger can hit three homeruns on one day and strike out three times the next day.  Humans aren't machines.

Coopmv

Quote from: Bulldog on November 13, 2009, 06:47:53 AM
That can easily happen, just as a baseball slugger can hit three homeruns on one day and strike out three times the next day.  Humans aren't machines.

But recordings have rehearsals and they are rarely a one-shot event as in sports.  Then there could be partial re-record.  Now I am not familiar with how BC operates, perhaps it is such low-budget operation that there is only one-shot (recording session) for each recording.

Marc

It's been mentioned before in this thread: Leusink c.s. had to record 200 church cantatas in about a year (starting in the autumn of 1999), to make sure that the entire Brilliant Bach integral was finished before the end of the Bach year 2000.
This was an impossible task, IMO. But anyway, conductor and singers and musicians agreed. Which makes it a shared responsibility, I think.
And I must admit: considering the lack of time they did an admirable job. But personally, would I be a musician, I would never say 'yes' to such an undertaking. But hey: it's the market! And this integral made Leusink almost world famous ;) before he could wink his eye.

On the other hand: I've met music & Bach lovers who consider the Leusink set as the best they've ever heard. I don't understand them, but I respect their opinion.
And at a Dutch internet forum (around 2000) I also read about people who praised this integral especially because of the 'not so good' quality, for Bach himself wasn't satisfied with the quality of performances in Leipzig, either. So, they argued, the Leusink set was the most 'authentic'!
To such arguments I can only say:
???

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 13, 2009, 05:15:27 PM
It's been mentioned before in this thread: Leusink c.s. had to record 200 church cantatas in about a year (starting in the autumn of 1999), to make sure that the entire Brilliant Bach integral was finished before the end of the Bach year 2000.
This was an impossible task, IMO. But anyway, conductor and singers and musicians agreed. Which makes it a shared responsibility, I think.
And I must admit: considering the lack of time they did an admirable job. But personally, would I be a musician, I would never say 'yes' to such an undertaking. But hey: it's the market! And this integral made Leusink almost world famous ;) before he could wink his eye.

On the other hand: I've met music & Bach lovers who consider the Leusink set as the best they've ever heard. I don't understand them, but I respect their opinion.
And at a Dutch internet forum (around 2000) I also read about people who praised this integral especially because of the 'not so good' quality, for Bach himself wasn't satisfied with the quality of performances in Leipzig, either. So, they argued, the Leusink set was the most 'authentic'!
To such arguments I can only say:
???

Why looking for perfection in an imperfect world?  I thought Ruth Holton's singing in this box set was lovely.  I had more problems with other female sololists ....

Opus106

Quote from: Coopmv on November 13, 2009, 07:23:47 PM
Why looking for perfection in an imperfect world? 

We only try to reduce the amount of imperfection, albeit we cannot reduce it to nothingness.
Regards,
Navneeth

Marc

#415
Quote from: Coopmv on November 13, 2009, 07:23:47 PM
Why looking for perfection in an imperfect world?  I thought Ruth Holton's singing in this box set was lovely.  I had more problems with other female sololists ....

Hey Coop: no prob! :)
In fact: I sort of agree with you, but with different conclusions in the end, I guess. Holton's singing didn't satisfy me. But maybe she sings with more 'perfection' than others. But that's just my personal taste: I want my Bach with more meaning, and that's why I'm (generally speaking) not that happy with most British performances of his music: technical perfection (both in vocal & instrumental ways), but, IMHO, rather shallow compared to others.
F.i.: the McCreesh SMP is 'perfect', but it doesn't move me at all. Harnoncourt (plm. 1970, his first recording) is far from perfect, but it speaks to me in a way that I apparantly find very satisfying. So, I think I'm not really looking for perfection. Or: I'm looking for another kind of perfection: the meaning behind the notes and the words. A kind of perfection that suits me the best. I know it's a boring thing to say: but everyone has his/her own preferences. So please (as I said before): enjoy your Leusink discs. I just reacted to Kinght Mike's question about (personal) experiences with the Leusink performances. And yours and mine are definitely different. Again: no prob. In the end, Mike has to find out for himself. As we all do.
Greetz,
Marc.

P.S.: funny thing about SMP preferences: I like Herreweghe 2, but I dislike Bostridge in this recording. Not because he's shallow, but I find him overly emotional and trying to be 'to deep to convince' .... ??? So you see: my opinion about British Bach-performing will never be a black-to-white one, despite my remarks above. Bostridge is a very good tenor, and I like him in f.i. Schubert and Britten. But when Bach recitatives are concerned, he should take a listen to Kurt Equiluz .... and also to his fellow British countryman (yes!) John Mark Ainsley.

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 14, 2009, 02:08:10 AM
Hey Coop: no prob! :)
In fact: I sort of agree with you, but with different conclusions in the end, I guess. Holton's singing didn't satisfy me. But maybe she sings with more 'perfection' than others. But that's just my personal taste: I want my Bach with more meaning, and that's why I'm (generally speaking) not that happy with most British performances of his music: technical perfection (both in vocal & instrumental ways), but, IMHO, rather shallow compared to others.
F.i.: the McCreesh SMP is 'perfect', but it doesn't move me at all. Harnoncourt (plm. 1970, his first recording) is far from perfect, but it speaks to me in a way that I apparantly find very satisfying. So, I think I'm not really looking for perfection. Or: I'm looking for another kind of perfection: the meaning behind the notes and the words. A kind of perfection that suits me the best. I know it's a boring thing to say: but everyone has his/her own preferences. So please (as I said before): enjoy your Leusink discs. I just reacted to Kinght Mike's question about (personal) experiences with the Leusink performances. And yours and mine are definitely different. Again: no prob. In the end, Mike has to find out for himself. As we all do.
Greetz,
Marc.

P.S.: funny thing about SMP preferences: I like Herreweghe 2, but I dislike Bostridge in this recording. Not because he's shallow, but I find him overly emotional and trying to be 'to deep to convince' .... ??? So you see: my opinion about British Bach-performing will never be a black-to-white one, despite my remarks above. Bostridge is a very good tenor, and I like him in f.i. Schubert and Britten. But when Bach recitatives are concerned, he should take a listen to Kurt Equiluz .... and also to his fellow British countryman (yes!) John Mark Ainsley.

Marc, I hear you.  While I understand your misgivings about Bach Cantatas performed by English Soloists, I also have problems with continental soloists performing English Handel oratorios.  Call it the language and perhaps the cultural barrier that are somewhat insurmountable if I may (Handel was thoroughly Anglicized IMO).  In fact, this seems to extend to Handel's instrumental music as well, as one performance of Water Muisc by Karajan with the BPO was the worst I had ever heard.  I have that recording on Angel LP, the American label for EMI and the tempi are all wrong.  Little wonder why HvK and BPO rarely performed works of Handel.  This same apprehension is extended to an Italian group performing Handel.  While I have no problems spending money on my collection, I just do not want to collect the wrong/bad recordings.


knight66

Thanks for your very thoughtful remarks Marc. I have just got hold of the Brilliant box and 'Wachet Auf' is unfurling as I write.

I think I was probably being a bit provocative about the boy's voices issue. In choir I am happy; as long as they avoid the English Hoot. I am sure some lads do splendidly on occasion and that I would be more than happy with some of the specified performances you point to.

In solo cantatas I often prefer the voices of the earlier generation of soloists, but I much prefer the HIP orchestral sounds and the modern choirs are often breathtakingly good. But then some modern recordings need to allow the music to breathe more and rush less. The most up to date ones do now seem to be giving more elbow room and the phrasing is less stiff or drilled.

I will report back on the Brilliant box, though direct comparisons will be sparse as I chose VIII because most of the cantatas are new to my collection.

The illustration about lack of perfection being more authentic in the minds of some; is hilarious. It shows how the search for authentic can lead down a dead end and sight is lost of the music itself. The thing is almost reduced to a competition where the 'Authentic' aspects wipe out issues of musicality and of releasing the meaning. It may sound 'right', but be dead in the water.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

knight66

Tenor Niko van der Meel......EEEK!

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

jlaurson

Listen what the cat dragged in:


3 Cantatas - New Recordings juxtaposed
with the "Alte Werk" recordings.
Harnoncourt, Concentus Musicus et al.


Haven't heard it yet--still busy with f&*($# Mahler--but with three of my four favorite singers (C.Schaefer, W.Guera, C.Gerhaher), what could possibly go awry?

Didn't get the concept at first... three cantatas on two discs?? What cantatas are those? But these are really three cantatas, newly recorded, on one disc.... and then his old recording (licensed from Warner) on the second disc, for comparison. Awesome.  For the price of one, at that.