The Bach Cantatas

[Opus106]

3 Cantatas - New Recordings juxtaposed
with the "Alte Werk" recordings.
Harnoncourt, Concentus Musicus et al.

Will be looking forward to reviews of that one!

[Coopmv]

In solo cantatas I often prefer the voices of the earlier generation of soloists, but I much prefer the HIP orchestral sounds and the modern choirs are often breathtakingly good. But then some modern recordings need to allow the music to breathe more and rush less. The most up to date ones do now seem to be giving more elbow room and the phrasing is less stiff or drilled.

Mike,  Couldn't agree with you more on this point.  I prefer the likes of Elly Ameling, Janet Baker, Julia Hamari and the semi-retiring Emma Kirkby over the current generation of soloists, though I undoubtedly prefer the orchestra to perform on period instruments.  Unfortunately, there is no time machine here ...   

[Marc]

Tenor Niko van der Meel......EEEK!

Funny you mention him, because I almost added his name to the list of good recitativo singers (along with Equiluz and Ainsley). I didn't do it because Van der Meel tends to interprete along too straight lines, IMO.
But: I've heard the man several times in live concerts and, even not always 'beautiful', 'perfect' or whatever, as a storyteller in Bach's passions he was really able to completely 'drag' me into the event.

But yes, in many Leusink recordings he's definitely not at his best. (But I prefer him about 1000 times more than Schoch.)

There's also another thing between a listener and the human (singing) voice: one person can detest the voice of a singer, whilst another is able to completely adore it. If you really dislike the sound of a voice, it's very difficult to hear the good aspects of his/her interpretation. Van der Meel has got a rather thin voice, and I think that (a.o. because you seem to like the old-fashioned singers more) he is just not your cup of tea.
In fact: lots of negative things that I mentioned about Bach singing could be rather positive to you! I've entirely embraced (good )singing HIP-soloists. Which means f.i. that Lucia Popp singing BWV 51 isn't really satisfying to me anymore, even though she's my favourite lyric soprano. 'Oldie' Elly Ameling though, IMO, is a great Bach soprano ....

Enjoy yourself with Leusink, with the goods as well as the bads!

[Marc]

Listen what the cat dragged in:

[Harnoncourt: Bach cantatas]

Haven't heard it yet--still busy with f&*($# Mahler--but with three of my four favorite singers (C.Schaefer, W.Guera, C.Gerhaher), what could possibly go awry?

Didn't get the concept at first... three cantatas on two discs?? What cantatas are those? But these are really three cantatas, newly recorded, on one disc.... and then his old recording (licensed from Warner) on the second disc, for comparison. Awesome. For the price of one, at that.

That's nice!
(Although I already have the oldies. )

Harnoncourt should open an internet forum now, where listeners can discuss!
Or should we offer him this board?

It reminds me in a way of this: Mengelberg played Mahler 4 in Amsterdam twice in concerts, before and after the intermission. So that people could compare and also could get used to a new work with some new sounds or unusual musical thoughts, et cetera. Mahler himself thought that was a brilliant idea!

[Franco]

Leusink c.s. had to record 200 church cantatas in about a year

This is not a monumental task.  The cantatas, while great music are not long works, and share many performance characteristics that once certain interpretative decisions are made, a lot of rehearsal is not necessary.  And, for any professional choir, this music is not new or difficult.

[The new erato]

Gardiner did he same, all the while travelling around the world and performing them at the same time.

[Marc]

This is not a monumental task.  The cantatas, while great music are not long works, and share many performance characteristics that once certain interpretative decisions are made, a lot of rehearsal is not necessary.  And, for any professional choir, this music is not new or difficult.

As much as I respect another opinion, my own in this case would be: every musician who shares yours will not be able to give a satisfying perfomance of a Bach cantata, nor any other great work. I really wouldn't know how to record 60 cd's of great music in one year and maintain a high level. A high level to my taste, that is of course.
BTW: the choir of Leusink isn't professional.

[Marc]

Gardiner did he same, all the while travelling around the world and performing them at the same time.

And already announcing his plans years before. So I bet he was rather well prepared, as was his choir. BTW: from what I've heard, I'm not that impressed by his SDG cycle, either. Although I know that loads of other Bach lovers definitely do not share this opinion.

[jlaurson]

For what it's worth, I'm with you, Marc. 

Leusink's, whatever lack of perfection one can point to, was an astounding achievement--and it's a monumental task, no matter how you look at it.
But the most important thing about Leusink's project is the result: Bach Cantatas for half of the Netherlands, picked up alongside Preparation-H and
Cranberry juice. 
Gardiner's efforts, although with a band that had much of the works in their repertoire, are every bit as big and perhaps more astounding, still.
And I don't think that Gardiner quite matches the expectations everyone had and has from his extraordinary cycle... and much of the praise
for Gardiner is, upon closer inspection, fairly devoid of specifics (incl. mine)... there's a sense of treading water when reading them... an assertion
of greatness when there is only excellence to be had.

Listened to the below Bach set once.
Strangely: I almost liked the first cantata better in the first (older) version, even though the playing of the Concentus Musicus has become more refined and even though the soloists and esp. the choirs are better. But there is something quite natural, quite enchanting to the old ways. Even the boy soprano in BWV 140 is no bother. One accepts the natural shortcomings of a boy's voice and tries to get from it the elements that another voice cannot possess. Kudos, little Alan B.. But in BWV 61, the stunner among the newly recorded three cantatas, the boy soprano makes matters just about unlistenable. Perpetual cringe. Little Seppi K. tries way too hard and comes up with a big bowl of FAIL.

Listen what the cat dragged in:


3 Cantatas - New Recordings juxtaposed
with the "Alte Werk" recordings.
Harnoncourt, Concentus Musicus et al.


Haven't heard it yet--still busy with f&*($# Mahler--but with three of my four favorite singers (C.Schaefer, W.Guera, C.Gerhaher), what could possibly go awry?

Didn't get the concept at first... three cantatas on two discs?? What cantatas are those? But these are really three cantatas, newly recorded, on one disc.... and then his old recording (licensed from Warner) on the second disc, for comparison. Awesome.  For the price of one, at that.

[Marc]

But in BWV 61, the stunner among the newly recorded three cantatas, the boy soprano makes matter just about unlistenable. Perpetual cringe. Little Seppi K. tries way too hard and comes up with a big bowl of FAIL.

Well, Advent is quickly on its way, so I should take a listen to the grungy oldies (like BWV 61&62) of Harnoncourt again.

I know, there are mismatches with the boys, but my positive remarks about the L/H-set was mainly meant in general. I'm afraid that, in the end, no complete set will be entirely satisfying for anyone. But that's no wonder: 200 works of quality, and thousands and thousands of listeners with different and differing tastes!

[Harry]

Listened to the below Bach set once.
. ""One accepts the natural shortcomings of a boy's voice and tries to get from it the elements that another voice cannot possess.""

Well good for you if you can, I get almost sick, from these boys.
A artistic mistake in my opinion. I hate shortcomings, when it comes to voices.
Everything about these old recordings I like, apart from disaster called boy sopranos.

Note: Boys choirs are okay for me, but as soloists, nah, thank you!

[Marc]

Well good for you if you can, I get almost sick, from these boys.

Hey Harry, too bad we ain't got those pukey emoticons on this board!
That would give a nasty mess, when we forced you to listen to a Leonhardt Bach cantata!

I had a pretty good boy soprano voice myself, if I may say so, even as an adolescent (singing Jon Anderson and Jimmy Sommerville vocals in schooltime breaks for endeared - and endearing - pretty girls), and luckilly I never got sick of myself .... singing, that is.
I did get sick smoking though, and it ruined my voice.

About other personal characteristics I remain SILENT.
(I did quit smoking, though.)

(Unfortunately those girls never found out that I was a pretty good kisser, too. )

[Harry]

Hey Harry, too bad we ain't got those pukey emoticons on this board!
That would give a nasty mess, when we forced you to listen to a Leonhardt Bach cantata!

I had a pretty good boy soprano voice myself, if I may say so, even as an adolescent (singing Jon Anderson and Jimmy Somerville vocals in school time breaks for endeared - and endearing - pretty girls), and luckily I never got sick of myself .... singing, that is.
I did get sick smoking though, and it ruined my voice.

About other personal characteristics I remain SILENT.
(I did quit smoking, though.)

(Unfortunately those girls never found out that I was a pretty good kisser, too. )

I really enjoyed reading this Marc, there was a wide grin on my face .
I realize my bold statement about Boy soloists, is rather fierce, but then my reaction to hearing them was even worse.
Its the only part in these interpretations I object too, where they not there, I would buy the set for 160 euro's without a blink of the eye.

[Coopmv]

Well, Advent is quickly on its way, so I should take a listen to the grungy oldies (like BWV 61&62) of Harnoncourt again.

Yeah, it is time to take this DVD out for a spin ...   

[Marc]

I really enjoyed reading this Marc, there was a wide grin on my face .
I realize my bold statement about Boy soloists, is rather fierce, but then my reaction to hearing them was even worse.
Its the only part in these interpretations I object too, where they not there, I would buy the set for 160 euro's without a blink of the eye.

As I'm growing older (granddad speaking) I'm getting more cautious with bold statements, but I know there are many music lovers who get rash only from listening to boy sopranos, so I wasn't really shocked by yours .
I have a slight advantage (though not in a financial/economical way): despite the fact that I'm not always that fond of the heavenly bright and perfect yet sometimes shallow British choir singing in Bach, I still think it sounds GREAT. So I still like to listen to it, even though the music isn't always digging as deep as .... for instance when the boys of good old Gustav are singing.

[Coopmv]

As I'm growing older (granddad speaking) I'm getting more cautious with bold statements, but I know there are many music lovers who get rash only from listening to boy sopranos, so I wasn't really shocked by yours .
I have a slight advantage (though not in a financial/economical way): despite the fact that I'm not always that fond of the heavenly bright and perfect yet sometimes shallow British choir singing in Bach, I still think it sounds GREAT. So I still like to listen to it, even though the music isn't always digging as deep as .... for instance when the boys of good old Gustav are singing.

The only English choir that sings Bach choral works I would go for is the Monteverdi Choir. 

[prémont]

The only English choir that sings Bach choral works I would go for is the Monteverdi Choir. 

May I say it that way, that English choirs are not what I look for when it is about Bach.

[Coopmv]

May I say it that way, that English choirs are not what I look for when it is about Bach.

That is why I would not go for the St Matthew Passion by Stephen Cleobury.  Any of my future acquisitions of this work have to be either by German or Dutch (and certainly not by American, whose performances are often subpar).  In fact, I don't even find Cleobury's Handel's Dixit Dominus all that convincing ...

[prémont]

That is why I would not go for the St Matthew Passion by Stephen Cleobury.  Any of my future acquisitions of this work have to be either by German or Dutch (and certainly not by American, whose performances are often subpar).  In fact, I don't even find Cleobury's Handel's Dixit Dominus all that convincing ...

Cleobury´s SMP is very cheap, and there are some good singers and instrumental contributions.  But certainly not my preferred version.

[Coopmv]

Cleobury´s SMP is very cheap, and there are some good singers and instrumental contributions.  But certainly not my preferred version.

We are definitely in agreement.  Our observations may also explain why Marriner has never recorded St. Matthew Passion.  At least I have never seen one ...