The Bach Cantatas

[Marc]

Guys, we're getting a bit off-topic now.
It's about Bach CANTATAS, not about PASSIONS in this thread!

Pfui euch!

Oh, may I say something about Cleobury's passions?

In the SMP I get very moved during O Mensch, bewein' dein Sünde groß. When the boys start singing "Den'n Toten er das Leben gab .... und legt dabei all' Krankheit ab" it's very difficult to keep my eyes dry, I have to admit.
But in general, I think Cleobury's straightforward interpretation of the SJP is better. There are similarities with Gardiner's SJP, and of all Gardiner's vocal Bach attributions I still think his SJP is by far the best. Also, in both (Gardiner's and Cleobury's SJP) there is a good Evangelist, resp. Anthony Rolfe Johnson and John Mark Ainsley. The German pronouncation of the latter is slightly better, but the way Johnson sings "Barabbas aber war ein Mörder! ... Da nahm Pilatus Jesum und geißelte ihn!" is without competition, I dare say.

In Cleobury's SMP it seems that the boys are doing better with their German, but this doesn't go for Evangelist Rogers Covey-Crump. And I also think his interpretation is weak, too laid-back. Beautiful singing, but no he's no probing storyteller like Johnson or Ainsley.

[Antoine Marchand]

When the boys start singing "Den'n Toten er das Leben gab .... und legt dabei all' Krankheit ab" it's very difficult to keep my eyes dry, I have to admit.

Oh, that happens so frequently with Bach!

A mysterious and unexpected feeling of cosmic gratitude... I know, it sounds rather sentimental, but it is true. My last experience: this Saturday early in the morning - alone on the street - while I listened to the "Domine Deus" of the Missa Brevis BWV 234 in my Ipod (Ricercar Consort - Tombeau de Sa Majesté la Reine de Pologne). All sounded so incredibly beautiful and moving. As you say, it was hard to keep my eyes dry.

[The new erato]

Guys, we're getting a bit off-topic now.
It's about Bach CANTATAS, not about PASSIONS in this thread!

Pfui euch!

Oh, may I say something about Cleobury's passions?

In the SMP I get very moved during O Mensch, bewein' dein Sünde groß. When the boys start singing "Den'n Toten er das Leben gab .... und legt dabei all' Krankheit ab" it's very difficult to keep my eyes dry, I have to admit.
But in general, I think Cleobury's straightforward interpretation of the SJP is better. There are similarities with Gardiner's SJP, and of all Gardiner's vocal Bach attributions I still think his SJP is by far the best. Also, in both (Gardiner's and Cleobury's SJP) there is a good Evangelist, resp. Anthony Rolfe Johnson and John Mark Ainsley. The German pronouncation of the latter is slightly better, but the way Johnson sings "Barabbas aber war ein Mörder! ... Da nahm Pilatus Jesum und geißelte ihn!" is without competition, I dare say.

In Cleobury's SMP it seems that the boys are doing better with their German, but this doesn't go for Evangelist Rogers Covey-Crump. And I also think his interpretation is weak, too laid-back. Beautiful singing, but no he's no probing storyteller like Johnson or Ainsley.

Thank you for this. I've got Cleobury's SJP on Brilliant and always liked it a lot, but never bought the SMP.

[knight66]

Thanks for a very absorbing set of posts. I have been listening to the Leusink Volume VIII. I have been enjoying the performances.

Over the last few pages I have been picking up on a number of perhaps sweeping statements that English choirs are not steeped in the meaning and traditions of Bach. How do folk feel the Japanese choir manages?

I am not clear whether these are amateur or professional choirs or both that are included in the statement. But in fact I agree in the main. I have belonged to a number of large choirs over the last 35 years, some well known, others local ones. I also belonged to a couple of very good chamber choirs. However, all the training was really backing performance of the later main stream choral repertoire and modern composers.

Even in the good choirs I got very frustrated with some singers who could not detect that different styles of music meant more than big or small numbers of singers. Bach would be sung using the same tone palate as for Verdi. We were not really coached in the German. We loved singing Bach and did a couple of performances of the St Matthew with Abbado. Apart from him perhaps being the wrong conductor for this, the choir had altogether the wrong sound. We were cut down in numbers, but the sound was still that which we were asked for in Mahler or Brahms. That was the sort of music these large choirs were formed to perform. Though singing with a huge range of dynamics and often great subtlety, there was no sense of digging into Bach's sound world.

In the chamber choir we sang a great range of music, the Handel was first rate, but that was music that was in the blood with us.

Turning to the haste with which the Brilliant cycle was recorded. Some of the performances I have feel superficial, not poorly played or sung through brief acquaintance with the music, but there are signs that the performers have not been marinaded in it. The notes with each disc are excellent in bringing out detail that fails to register in the performances.

As to the remarks that any decent musicians could virtually sight-read them as they are simple.....well, they may be simple on the page, but the genius of Bach stitched a lot of sublety and symbolic meaning into both the instrumentation and the vocal lines, which comment on one another. You don't capture that detail or meaning whilst sightreading through them.

Gardiner had clearly steeped himself in the world of Bach but again, his notes stipulate things that I feel are sometimes missed in performance. But he had quite a roster of singers and the same small number was not involved in all the performances. He had a very complex schedule to change singers round, including the choir. I know there are alternative solo singers in the Leusink set, but not such a wide number of soloists. Leusink'a soloists seem to have to carry more individual responsibility for what must have felt a bit like factory farming. The musicians need time with the music to contemplate it.

But with almost anyone's live recordings, it is probably not going to happen that all the detail comes out. So, what Gardiner does bring out shows enormous skill and understanding.

In the Brilliant set, I find the boy's voices in the choir just fine. Holton I like, she sounds almost like a boy, but she does not express much. In contrast, while Nico van der Meel is expressive, I find his sound unpleasant and unreliable. His intonation is suspect and his tone thin and acidic. The other tenor on the set is Knut Schock, he has a better nourished sound, but on occasion cannot make his voice get round the notes and sound at ease.

Even when the vocal technique is just below what Bach needs, if the voice has been put round the difficulties often enough, it can be made to fit like a glove. So, there I detect the feel of virtual sightsinging. The orchestra sounds good to my ears, especially the wind players, but, they lack piquancy and individuality in the phrasing. This is where more preparation pays dividends.

Mike

[Que]

Mike, you sound like the ideal candidate for the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set.

Because from what I've heard of it, the Leusink sounds like a redo of that old set - only then in modern sound, with less visionary conducting, smaller names as performers and hastily recorded - but very much in the same style and tradition.

The L&H has plenty of that Bach tradition and superb singers like Paul Esswood, Kurt Equiluz and Max van Egmond. 0:) Orchestral/instrumental accompaniment includes Bob van Asperen, Sigiswald Kuijken, Anner Bijlsma, Frans Brüggen - you name it! Choirs are excellent all around (cond. by Gillesberger, Herreweghe, Schmidt-Gaden). Though there are a few instances where the boy soloists are below standard, on the other hand also quite a few who do admirably and deliver really touching interpretations (Sebastian Hennig!).

Q

[Harry]

Oh, that happens so frequently with Bach!

A mysterious and unexpected feeling of cosmic gratitude... I know, it sounds rather sentimental, but it is true. My last experience: this Saturday early in the morning - alone on the street - while I listened to the "Domine Deus" of the Missa Brevis BWV 234 in my Ipod (Ricercar Consort - Tombeau de Sa Majesté la Reine de Pologne). All sounded so incredibly beautiful and moving. As you say, it was hard to keep my eyes dry.

I am afraid I never shed one tear over Bach, and I am certainly not a unfeeling fellow.

[Sean]

Thanks for a very absorbing set of posts. I have been listening to the Leusink Volume VIII. I have been enjoying the performances.

I'm also working my way through the Leusink- I like it, unpretentious, straightforwardly presented and produced & listenable, though that mezzo or whoever she has a slightly insistent tone.

I thought the secular cantatas show how close Bach could be to Handel...

[Coopmv]

Mike, you sound like the ideal candidate for the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set.

Because from what I've heard of it, the Leusink sounds like a redo of that old set - only then in modern sound, with less visionary conducting, smaller names as performers and hastily recorded - but very much in the same style and tradition.

The L&H has plenty of that Bach tradition and superb singers like Paul Esswood, Kurt Equiluz and Max van Egmond. 0:) Orchestral/instrumental accompaniment includes Bob van Asperen, Sigiswald Kuijken, Anner Bijlsma, Frans Brüggen - you name it! Choirs are excellent all around (cond. by Gillesberger, Herreweghe, Schmidt-Gaden). Though there are a few instances where the boy soloists are below standard, on the other hand also quite a few who do admirably and deliver really touching interpretations (Sebastian Hennig!).

Q

I hope to start listening to my Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set over the Christmas holidays ...

[Marc]

Thanks for a very absorbing set of posts. I have been listening to the Leusink Volume VIII. I have been enjoying the performances.
[following Mike's review]

Mike, thanks for this contribution. Of course we differ in opinion in some or many cases, but I entirely understand your explanations.
Greetz,
Marc

[Marc]

I thought the secular cantatas show how close Bach could be to Handel...

Yeah, nice to read this. I know what you mean. At least many of these cantatas show that, in a way, Bach also wrote (mini-) operas.

[Marc]

I am afraid I never shed one tear over Bach, and I am certainly not a unfeeling fellow.

Now please, Harry, thou should not be afraid!

We, the Bach CryBaby's, allow you to shed your floating tears over .... errr .... Léhar?

Vilja, o Vilja, du Waldmägdelein,
Fass' mich und lass' mich
Dein Trautliebster sein!
Vilja, O Vilja, was tust du mir an?
Bang fleht ein liebkranker Mann!

   

[Harry]

Now please, Harry, thou should not be afraid!

We, the Bach CryBaby's, allow you to shed your floating tears over .... errr .... Léhar?

Vilja, o Vilja, du Waldmägdelein,
Fass' mich und lass' mich
Dein Trautliebster sein!
Vilja, O Vilja, was tust du mir an?
Bang fleht ein liebkranker Mann!

   

Indeed, that is a passion I understand. My heart must be lightweight.

[Marc]

Don't underestimate yourself. It moves me, too (if it relieves you to read this ).
I have two recordings of this song, sung by Cheryl Studer and by Lucia Popp. Especially the latter brings me to tears .... as she does many times, btw.
Dear me, I should not call myself a Bach CryBaby, I'm a CryBaby period.

[Harry]

Don't underestimate yourself. It moves me, too (if it relieves you to read this ).
I have two recordings of this song, sung by Cheryl Studer and by Lucia Popp. Especially the latter brings me to tears .... as she does many times, btw.
Dear me, I should not call myself a Bach CryBaby, I'm a CryBaby period.

Yes oddly enough it does relieves me, thank you. My operetta passion is looked upon as something for people that do not understand opera.
I love baroque opera, and dislike heartily romantic opera, including that megalomaniac German composer.
Lucia Popp is liked by me too, in her younger days she sang quite a lot of operetta tunes.
They say real men don't cry,  I have only cried once in my life, and that was a experience I would not like to repeat...ever. It nearly broke my heart.

[Marc]

Yes oddly enough it does relieves me, thank you. My operetta passion is looked upon as something for people that do not understand opera.
I love baroque opera, and dislike heartily romantic opera, including that megalomaniac German composer.
Lucia Popp is liked by me too, in her younger days she sang quite a lot of operetta tunes.
They say real men don't cry,  I have only cried once in my life, and that was a experience I would not like to repeat...ever. It nearly broke my heart.

Yes, we can talk about crying or talk about crying. I think you're talking about the latter. I did it more than once, I have to admit, and it also nearly broke my heart, but afterwards it felt good.
When I listen to music that moves me, the first kind of crying can happen. That moment when one suddenly realizes that there's some liquid coming out of one's eye(s), and slowly floating down one's cheek(s). I must say, in most cases it's not a bad experience at all.

[Sean]

Yeah, nice to read this. I know what you mean. At least many of these cantatas show that, in a way, Bach also wrote (mini-) operas.

Sure thing Marc.

[Sorin Eushayson]

While I enjoy the Bach cantatas it must be said that I've never cried over them!  Maybe that will change.  I'm about half-way through the Leusink set at the moment and am quite enjoying them.

[Coopmv]

Don't underestimate yourself. It moves me, too (if it relieves you to read this ).
I have two recordings of this song, sung by Cheryl Studer and by Lucia Popp. Especially the latter brings me to tears .... as she does many times, btw.
Dear me, I should not call myself a Bach CryBaby, I'm a CryBaby period.

Lucia Popp was wonderful.  I recently bought the Mass in B by her and the St. Matthew Passion is on the way ...

[Marc]

While I enjoy the Bach cantatas it must be said that I've never cried over them!  Maybe that will change.  I'm about half-way through the Leusink set at the moment and am quite enjoying them.

When I shed tears (only once in a while) whilst listening to music, then those are tears of enjoyment, but also comfort, relief, happiness, satisfaction, love, empathy, et cetera.

I remember another thread, about depressive/depressing music, where I added that I do not know of any depressing music. Music has never turned me into a sad mood really, regardless if it is Dido's Lament of Purcell, the Finale of Tchaikovsky's Sixth or Twenty-four Hours by Joy Division.
Maybe most tears are floating because of matters like identification and understanding, with the music adding a breathless moment of .... can't think of the right word.  

[Marc]

Lucia Popp was wonderful.  I recently bought the Mass in B by her and the St. Matthew Passion is on the way ...

Oops, Coop!
Awfully sorry to say, but no matter how much I like or even love Lucia Popp's voice, she wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Don't worry though: especially Schreier's Hohe Messe is a fine performance (though not my fave).
We were talking about tears in this thread and this is a strange example: I think Carolyn Watkinson's vibrato is way over the top in the Agnus Dei, yet this might be the most emotional performance I've yet heard of this piece. I think she's feeling and experiencing herself every line she's singing, and to me (despite the vibes) she's utterly convincing!