The Bach Cantatas

[Antoine Marchand]

IMO, all this theme about crying and tears is condemned to be trivial or, at least, to produce misunderstandings, not by our own words, but as a part of the nature of things itself.

When I speak about tears I am not -exactly- thinking on "physical" tears, but about very deep emotions; so deeply felt that they can be showed or suggested, but not "demonstrated". A spiritual zone where words or language in general are powerless. Probably, this is more expressive in some romance languages, as the Spanish: "mostrar" (to show) v/s "demostrar" (to prove).

Therefore, I can not "demonstrate" if Harry is right or wrong -if these words do any sense here- because that is impossible in the realm of these inexpressible things... "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent" (Ludwig Wittgenstein).

 

[Marc]

I never meant to suggest or demonstrate any 'right' or 'wrong' in the crying theme.

And I would like to add that IMO almost all the themes at this board are condemned to be trivial or, at least, to produce misunderstandings, not by our own words, but as a part of the nature of things itself.
And I accept that - for I consider myself part of all that.

[Antoine Marchand]

And I accept that - for I consider myself part of all that.

Ok Marc, it is your right.

BTW, is it just my idea or it is slightly bad-mannered to paraphrase my reply in that way?

Anyway, when I said "right" or "wrong" I was not thinking in your replies at all. But probably that was just another misunderstanding.

[Coopmv]

Oops, Coop!
Awfully sorry to say, but no matter how much I like or even love Lucia Popp's voice, she wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Don't worry though: especially Schreier's Hohe Messe is a fine performance (though not my fave).
We were talking about tears in this thread and this is a strange example: I think Carolyn Watkinson's vibrato is way over the top in the Agnus Dei, yet this might be the most emotional performance I've yet heard of this piece. I think she's feeling and experiencing herself every line she's singing, and to me (despite the vibes) she's utterly convincing!

Carolyn Watkinson is one of my favorites when it comes to alto.  I first discovered her in Handel Messiah by Christopher Hogwood and the AAM.  BTW, I also enjoyed listening to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in St Matthew Passion or Mass in B (via the recordings by Klemperer and Karajan).  She had such a gorgeous voice ...

[Marc]

Ok Marc, it is your right.

BTW, is it just my idea or it is slightly bad-mannered to paraphrase my reply in that way?

I'd better placed a smiley. I mean: we don't have really have 'issues', do we?
In a general way, I agreed with your statement. But I wanted to get rid of my 'crying' image.
Real men don't cry, you knöw?

Anyway, when I said "right" or "wrong" I was not thinking in your replies at all. But probably that was just another misunderstanding.

I hear you.
But: me was thinking at a certain point: as if I'm nothing but crying whilst listening to music. I wanted to 'clear' that misunderstanding. In a clumsy way, you're right, which can lead to other misunderstandings .... et cetera.
Well, I'm off to a group of friends, who do not like classical music at all. Wish me luck!
Auf wiedersehn!

[Antoine Marchand]

I'd better placed a smiley...

As you know, all this thing of tears and crying began when I agreed with you on certain withering effects of Bach music. So here we are, not very far. 

[Marc]

Advent has begun.
J.S. Bach composed some great cantatas for this period.

In another thread I read Frellie's remark about BWV 61 & 62, and about preferring the latter.

Any thoughts about favourites? And why?
BWV 36, 61, 62, 132?

Although we could be able to, at least in our heads, listen to reconstructed versions of BWV 70a & 147a, I thought I'd better to leave them out.

[Frellie]

In another thread I read Frellie's remark about BWV 61 & 62, and about preferring the latter.

Any thoughts about favourites? And why?
BWV 36, 61, 62, 132?

Thank you, Marc, for picking this subject up and putting it down in this thread.

My favorite is indeed BWV 62. But, I must say, after listening a couple of times to BWV 61, I've grown fonder of the latter one than before. Its opening chorus is very enticing, although I maintain that the opening of BWV62 is more impressive, more muscular.

So there's that. My opinion of BWV61 changed favorably, the last days.

What about you, Marc?

[Marc]

What about you, Marc?

In most cases when I heard or read about a choice between BWV 61 & 62, the earlier work did win.

So that's why your choice for the latter attracted my attention.

I think that I personally prefer BWV 61.
But to motivate that choice I almost have to be 'mathematical'.

Opening chorus: BWV 62 gets my voice. A fantastic piece!
Even when it's performed not like a song of hope of expectation, but as a command (Gardiner, who IMO got it wrong, but survives because of a great and skilled performance).
The tenor arias of both cantatas have a lot in common, they share the same atmosphere and I like them both. No 'winner' here.
When the second aria is concerned (resp. for soprano [BWV 61] and bass [BWV 62], I choose the first. That lovely phrase O, wie selig werd' ich sein!
When the recitativos are concerned, I personally think that the bass recitativo of BWV 61 (Siehe siehe, ich stehe vor der Tür is a little miracle. Another splendid Bach example that baroque recitativos aren't just 'filling'.
Of the finale chorales the joyful piece of BWV 61 gets my vote.

The other two are beautiful, too, btw!
Of BWV 132 I really like the opening aria and its colleague for alto (Christi Glieder, ach bedenket).
BWV 36, which was originally a secular cantata, contains maybe the most beautiful arrangement by Bach of the chorale Nun, komm der Heiden Heiland (together with the organ chorale BWV 659). This duetto for soprano and alto, circling around each other along with the oboe d'amore: alas alas, a joy that lasts far too short! And the last soprano aria, with muted violin solo - Auch mit gedämpften schwachen Stimmen, even beats that other Advent gem when sheer beauty is the issue; the above mentioned soprano aria for BWV 61 (Öffne dich, mein ganzes Herze).

[Guido]

Has anyone here listened to all of them? I'm quite tempted to at some stage - It wouldn't even take a year at a rate of one a day.

[Todd]

Has anyone here listened to all of them? I'm quite tempted to at some stage - It wouldn't even take a year at a rate of one a day.

Yes, I listened to the complete Harnoncourt / Leonhardt set.  The average quality level is very high, but some works are definitely better than others.  At their best, the cantatas are transcendant.  At their worst, a bit workaday (though that's workaday for Bach).  I will say that by the time I was done, I was tired of hearing boys sing.  I prefer women sopranos by far. 

[knight66]

I have about half of them and slowly over the years, I will probably end up with them all. But I prefer to take my time and get to know them before I move on to new ones.

Mike

[Que]

Has anyone here listened to all of them? I'm quite tempted to at some stage - It wouldn't even take a year at a rate of one a day.

Yes, I finished listening to the complete cycle some fifteen years ago.

I have about half of them and slowly over the years, I will probably end up with them all. But I prefer to take my time and get to know them before I move on to new ones.

Mike

Excellent idea!  It took me a little some 2 years to go though the entire Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cycle. (It wasn't a cheap "set" back then... )

One approach I took was to follow the church calendar and listen to one of the canatas Bach wrote for that day/week.

Q

[Guido]

I''d like a set that didn't have boys and I also in general prefer mezzos/altos to countertenors, unless the countertenor is really really good. Is there a set which fulfills my criteria?

[jlaurson]

I''d like a set that didn't have boys and I also in general prefer mezzos/altos to countertenors, unless the countertenor is really really good. Is there a set which fulfills my criteria?

Koopman.

[Guido]

Cheers! I'm a fan of his so excellent!

[jlaurson]

Cheers! I'm a fan of his so excellent!

Good.
Big admirer myself. Never the best individually, perhaps, but the best overall in my opinion.

[Bulldog]

I'd better placed a smiley. I mean: we don't have really have 'issues', do we?
In a general way, I agreed with your statement. But I wanted to get rid of my 'crying' image.
Real men don't cry, you knöw?

Except for a death in the family.  Other than that, it's forbidden.

[Marc]

Slowly yet decisively mr. Suzuki is nearing the completion of his Bach cantata cycle.

I bought Volume 46 today, with a convincing performance of a.o. the beautiful cantata BWV 102 Herr, deine Augen sehen nach dem Glauben.



Very good performances of tenor Gerd Türk and Peter Kooy. The latter has been Suzuki's vocal cliff in the breakers during the entire project so far.

The only (small) problem I have is with counter-tenor Robin Blaze. He has never been my fave counter, but even apart from that it seems to me that, like Michael Chance in the recent past, his voice is losing its charm and flexibility now he's getting a little bit older.
I also think he's better in more melodic baroque compositions, and in vocal ensembles like duetti et al.
For instance on this Händel disc with soprano Carolyn Sampson:

[SonicMan46]

Well, since the start of this thread in 2007 (I believe), my Bach Cantata collection has grown from a dozen or so works to probably 150+ (mainly through the addition of Suzuki's 4 10-CD each 'Anniversary' boxes).

I'm not sure how many secular cantatas Bach composed but I recently saw the Brilliant Box below (8 discs) which is being offered at BRO for $24!  Could have posted in the 'considering thread' but I thought maybe there would be more experienced responses here; so, any comments please (and TIA) - Dave 

Edit - P.S. for those who own this set, does Brilliant provide a booklet w/ translations of the text?