The Bach Cantatas

[Scarpia]

Except for a death in the family.  Other than that, it's forbidden.

What if your CD collection was lost in a fire?

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, since the start of this thread in 2007 (I believe), my Bach Cantata collection has grown from a dozen or so works to probably 150+ (mainly through the addition of Suzuki's 4 10-CD each 'Anniversary' boxes).

I'm not sure how many secular cantatas Bach composed but I recently saw the Brilliant Box below (8 discs) which is being offered at BRO for $24!  Could have posted in the 'considering thread' but I thought maybe there would be more experienced responses here; so, any comments please (and TIA) - Dave 

Edit - P.S. for those who own this set, does Brilliant provide a booklet w/ translations of the text?

Well, IMO there are better options for the secular cantatas, especially if you are looking for HIP performances (like the sacred cantatas in the same label). The Kammerochester Berlin plays on modern instruments and the general approach is, I'll say, rather "operatic" (maybe not totally wrong if we are talking of secular cantatas). Anyway, you will find a lot of nice voices in these almost complete recordings, although not translations of the texts (at least not in the original edition in jewel boxes, which I have).

If you accept a recommendation, Ton Koopman is a topnotch option in these cantatas, particularly the fifth volume of his integral:





http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6770147&style=classical

[Scarpia]

Now that the topic has been revived, what are people's impressions of Rilling's recordings on Hanssler?   One criteria I have is no children's chorus and grown women, not boys, as sopranos.  That's Rilling, right?

[jlaurson]

Now that the topic has been revived, what are people's impressions of Rilling's recordings on Hanssler?   One criteria I have is no children's chorus and grown women, not boys, as sopranos.  That's Rilling, right?

That's almost everyone, but Harnoncourt/Leonhardt.

[Scarpia]

That's almost everyone, but Harnoncourt/Leonhardt.

Ok. That's useful information.  Anyone have an opinion as to the quality of Rilling's performances?

[DavidW]

Ok. That's useful information.  Anyone have an opinion as to the quality of Rilling's performances?

I think that he is very good, but he is anti-HIP.  That doesn't mean that he uses absurd romanticized treatments of Bach, just that he is on record as strongly objecting to the sound of the period instruments and preferring modern instruments.  The recordings that I've heard has shown depth, nuance and shading but are not PI.

[KevinP]

I think that he is very good, but he is anti-HIP.  That doesn't mean that he uses absurd romanticized treatments of Bach, just that he is on record as strongly objecting to the sound of the period instruments and preferring modern instruments.  The recordings that I've heard has shown depth, nuance and shading but are not PI.

I've heard him referred to as HIP, just on modern instruments.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I've heard him referred to as HIP, just on modern instruments.

It really depends on where in Rilling's cycle one listens. Rilling's cycle spans about twenty years and his recordings from the '70s display nothing of HIP. But as the cycle progresses a gradual evolving takes place and HIP comes more into play.

Not that HIP ever comes to dominate Rilling's thinking but the later the cycle the less "old school" his performances become.

[jlaurson]

Ok. That's useful information.  Anyone have an opinion as to the quality of Rilling's performances?

Rilling is about as solid, non-HIP-but-modernishish as it gets, in a positive way.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/rilling-with-message-from-bach.html

Unlike the aforementioned, Rilling is not married to the idea of performing Bach
on original instruments, although his performances are informed by the Baroque style.
In a way, Rilling is the continuation of what Karl Richter started: modern performances
of Bach, trimmed of all the excess of the earlier part of the 20th century.

The early HIPsters were already under way, the lessons of Muenchinger and Richter (rebels, in their time) had been learned, absorbed... and Rilling set about playing Bach in a Bach-scholarly way, without the ideology of HIP or resorting to original instruments or bowing techniques or the like. And, this isn't a minor point, Rilling's Bach (as many others, too) is centered around a chorus, the Bachakademie Stuttgart... a truly great instrument, and used in good number. Rilling's Matthew Passion and Christmas Oratorio are absolutely outstanding, for example, transcending (as every great recording does) any ideological issues of OVPP or Massive-Fun-Time-Bach.

He'd be one of my first choices for the secular cantatas, too... next to Herreweghe and of course Koopman. Not that the Peter Schreier-style of Bach ought to be dismissed; there are very few Bach Cantata sets that can be dismissed at all. (Harnoncourt for the reason you mention, I suppose... Ramin, because the recording and singing quality is just too low... )

[Antoine Marchand]

The early HIPsters were already under way, the lessons of Muenchinger...

BTW, a small Dutch label named Newton Classics has re-released the Bach's great sacred works directed by Karl Münchinger in a 9-CD set:



 

[SonicMan46]

Rilling is about as solid, non-HIP-but-modernishish as it gets, in a positive way.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/rilling-with-message-from-bach.html
The early HIPsters were already under way, the lessons of Muenchinger and Richter (rebels, in their time) had been learned, absorbed... and Rilling set about playing Bach in a Bach-scholarly way, without the ideology of HIP or resorting to original instruments or bowing techniques or the like. And, this isn't a minor point, Rilling's Bach (as many others, too) is centered around a chorus, the Bachakademie Stuttgart... a truly great instrument, and used in good number. Rilling's Matthew Passion and Christmas Oratorio are absolutely outstanding, for example, transcending (as every great recording does) any ideological issues of OVPP or Massive-Fun-Time-Bach.

He'd be one of my first choices for the secular cantatas, too... next to Herreweghe and of course Koopman.....

Thanks Jens, Antoine, et al for the comments, reviews, and recommendations on the Secular Cantatas - I do own Rilling on a 2-CD set (put together for the BMG Club a while back when I was a member, so a cheap purchase) - the recordings are from 1996-7 and I do enjoy them; I guess the question is the additional need for a HIP version?  Koopman looks good to me but his sets are rather costly at least on the Amazon MP, but I'll check again - that BRO price for the Brilliant 8-CD set just was enticing but sounds like Rilling is still a top choice in these works - Dave 

[DavidW]

Dave, the brilliant set isn't PI and is interpretatively similar to Rilling so there is no point in getting that for a fresh perspective.  If you cut out the completeness requirement you can get the best of the secular cantatas on 1 cd--

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=149620

Amazon inexplicably doesn't have this recording.

[SonicMan46]

Dave, the brilliant set isn't PI and is interpretatively similar to Rilling so there is no point in getting that for a fresh perspective.  If you cut out the completeness requirement you can get the best of the secular cantatas on 1 cd--

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=149620

Amazon inexplicably doesn't have this recording.

David - thanks for the suggestion above - I'd love to hear a couple of Koopman's performances from his Cantata effort; the 67 disc box is being offered at MDT for nearly $500!

I went to the Arkiv site and a Fanfare review had been reprinted there about the above recording - apparently no texts or translations in the notes - hmmm - and at $16 (plus S&H) a little pricey; also checked out Classics Online and can obtain the same as an MP3 download w/ my points there for about $9 - would just burn a CD-R and put it into the Hanssler Rilling set which has the texts/translations - Dave 

[Coopmv]

David - thanks for the suggestion above - I'd love to hear a couple of Koopman's performances from his Cantata effort; the 67 disc box is being offered at MDT for nearly $500!

I went to the Arkiv site and a Fanfare review had been reprinted there about the above recording - apparently no texts or translations in the notes - hmmm - and at $16 (plus S&H) a little pricey; also checked out Classics Online and can obtain the same as an MP3 download w/ my points there for about $9 - would just burn a CD-R and put it into the Hanssler Rilling set which has the texts/translations - Dave 

This is my next target ...

[DavidW]

Dave, you'll have to tell me how that classics online site works and whether you like it.  Because I was just thinking about how much I'm pissed at amazon mp3s outrageous pricing on classical music.

[SonicMan46]

This is my next target ...

Stuart - now, you gave a winky?    Make sure that Koopman's box comes w/ a DAMN good book! 

[SonicMan46]

Dave, you'll have to tell me how that classics online site works and whether you like it.  Because I was just thinking about how much I'm pissed at amazon mp3s outrageous pricing on classical music.

Hi David - well, I just purchased the recording under discussion from ClassicsOnline - just over $9 - already burned to a CD-R and now playing on my den stereo - it is different from Rilling; listening to the Coffee Cantata; as expected much more intimate - like the vocal interplay of the father & daughter better, plus period instruments used - will do some 'back to back' listening in the near future just for a better appreciation of the differences.

Concerning ClassicsOnline - I've ordered just over a half dozen MP3 recordings from them, all have been $9.99 (or less w/ discount points accumulated but not much of a savings); files are 320 kbps - there is a site specific download manager which puts the files in your 'music folder' under 'classicsonline' - good ID3 tagging and the album art is included as a JPEG (in a couple of cases, the booklet notes were provided as a PDF file).  The downloads are quite quick (even over my home Wi-Fi connection, 802.11g) and multiple files are done at once.  Used iTunes on my Vista laptop to burn a CD-R - seems to be sounding quite well at the moment.  Dave 

P.S. - in the Peasant Cantata, several 'digital glitches' occurred on my 'burned' MP3 disc; I then hooked up the laptop directly to my stereo system and the files played fine, so the download is OK; will burn another CD-R at a slower rate to see the effect - could be a batch of old CD-Rs?

[dimmer]

This is my next target ...

Have you checked out the reboxing of Suzuki's cantatas? The first 40 volumes available in 4 boxes, and 10 disks for the price of 3.  The main catch is that they are on CD rather than SACD, but still a remarkable bargain, complete with full booklets.  Better quality overall than Koopman by quite a long way. Look for them on amazon.co.jp - they still seem to be available.

[Scarpia]

This is my next target ...

Hmmm.  They apparently don't have the wherewithal to distribute that thing in the US, and to get that thing from overseas will be 300 pounds or so, nearly $500.   I've made lots and lots of small purchased from overseas.  Is there a level at which you are going to get charged import duties by the US customs service, I wonder?

[Antoine Marchand]

Have you checked out the reboxing of Suzuki's cantatas? ... Better quality overall than Koopman by quite a long way.

I have collected both cycles (well, Suzuki's still ongoing) and I prefer Koopman by some distance. But it's just an opinion because technically both cycles are excellent.