The Bach Cantatas

Started by Que, April 08, 2007, 01:51:45 AM

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Todd

Quote from: Scarpia on October 10, 2010, 08:10:00 AMIs there a level at which you are going to get charged import duties by the US customs service, I wonder?



No: http://www.usitc.gov/tariff_affairs/
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Scarpia

Quote from: Todd on October 10, 2010, 09:40:38 AM


No: http://www.usitc.gov/tariff_affairs/

Yes, I did find the "Harmonized Tariff Schedule" but found it impenetrable.  It seems to have been written for someone planning to import good in the course of business, not someone waiting for a package from Amazon.co.uk.    :(

dimmer

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 10, 2010, 09:24:55 AM
I have collected both cycles (well, Suzuki's still ongoing) and I prefer Koopman by some distance. But it's just an opinion because technically both cycles are excellent.  :)
Indeed both are, and with different strengths I think.  I think Koopman is better at the more robust cantatas, particularly in choruses, where Suzuki's more reflective approach can underwhelm, but the reverse is true as well.  Both orchestras are excellent, but I think the quality of Suzuki's soloists are better overall (as much as you can claim this over such a large and variable undertaking).  Of course living in Suzuki-san's home town may make me slightly partisan!
I have nothing to say, I am saying it, and that is poetry.
John Cage

jlaurson

Quote from: dimmer on October 10, 2010, 08:00:59 AM
Have you checked out the reboxing of Suzuki's cantatas? The first 40 volumes available in 4 boxes, and 10 disks for the price of 3.  The main catch is that they are on CD rather than SACD, but still a remarkable bargain, complete with full booklets. Better quality overall than Koopman by quite a long way. Look for them on amazon.co.jp - they still seem to be available.

I can't find that true at all. I have all the Suzuki except perhaps the last two recordings... and many are absolutely GREAT. Carlyn Sampson... delicious! Some cantatas, superbly exciting. But... But... I think on average Koopman is not just as good as Suzuki, but considerably more satisfactory. Not the occasional, very high highlights of Suzuki, but an incredibly high average... whereas on average I'm a little let down by Suzuki. (Partly because expectations are so high.)

Esp. since Koopman is chill-out-HIP (i.e. none of that "must have minimal possible amount of performers" business), uses mezzos, not counters, and features (now common) pitch-perfect orchestral playing, I think it is the overall most recommendable cycles of all out there. (Rilling, Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, Leusink, Suzuki...)
Only Herreweghe (not working on a cycle) brings that consistent a smile to my face. (And of course I'll always have a very soft spot in my heart for Karl Richter.)

For HIP, radical OVPP and all, I have to say that Kuijken's non-cycle (1-year cycle) kicks so much ass, it's not even funny.

Que

Quote from: SonicMan on October 09, 2010, 12:20:13 PM
Well, since the start of this thread in 2007 (I believe), my Bach Cantata collection has grown from a dozen or so works to probably 150+ (mainly through the addition of Suzuki's 4 10-CD each 'Anniversary' boxes).

I'm not sure how many secular cantatas Bach composed but I recently saw the Brilliant Box below (8 discs) which is being offered at BRO for $24!  Could have posted in the 'considering thread' but I thought maybe there would be more experienced responses here; so, any comments please (and TIA) - Dave  :D


For Bach's secular cantatas Leonhardt's later series for Philips is not to be overlooked IMO! :) Hopefully Universal will do a nice box set reissue soon.





Q

dimmer

Quote from: jlaurson on October 11, 2010, 06:09:50 AM
I can't find that true at all. I have all the Suzuki except perhaps the last two recordings... and many are absolutely GREAT. Carlyn Sampson... delicious! Some cantatas, superbly exciting. But... But... I think on average Koopman is not just as good as Suzuki, but considerably more satisfactory. Not the occasional, very high highlights of Suzuki, but an incredibly high average... whereas on average I'm a little let down by Suzuki. (Partly because expectations are so high.)
I have no problem with Koopman's orchestral standards, but the singers can be erratic, with simply bad at times soprano singing in the earlier volumes, and a kind of non-descript approach to text that seems to quite often gloss over meaning in a most generalised way. Of the three complete (or soon to be complete) HIP series I think Koopman lags both Gardiner and Suzuki. Thats not to say he isn't enjoyable in his own right, but both other series offer considerably more insights into the music.
I have nothing to say, I am saying it, and that is poetry.
John Cage

Coopmv

Quote from: Que on October 13, 2010, 09:54:30 PM
For Bach's secular cantatas Leonhardt's later series for Philips is not to be overlooked IMO! :) Hopefully Universal will do a nice box set reissue soon.





Q

But it would be re-issued under London, not Philips ...   :(

The new erato

Quote from: Que on October 13, 2010, 09:54:30 PM
For Bach's secular cantatas Leonhardt's later series for Philips is not to be overlooked IMO! :) Hopefully Universal will do a nice box set reissue soon.
I have the Brilliant (originally on Berlin) and its no more than a stopgap. Complete quality cycles of the secular cantatas are desperately needed, and I would welcome a Leonhard reissue dearly. The Jacobs double on HM,  consisiting of BWV 201, 205 and 213 are however a brilliant comfort untilo then. 

Que



Let me add this to the recommendations of recordings of Bach's secular cantatas.

Q :)

DavidW

Quote from: dimmer on October 15, 2010, 05:43:59 AM
Of the three complete (or soon to be complete) HIP series I think Koopman lags both Gardiner and Suzuki. Thats not to say he isn't enjoyable in his own right, but both other series offer considerably more insights into the music.

I don't think you can even say soon to be complete for Gardiner.  He's not even half way.  12 volumes 2 cds each = 24, but it takes 50-60 cds to traverse the catalogue.  Even though Suzuki is much closer to finishing is he actually done?  You must not know what are the three complete HIP cycles, they are:

Harnoncourt/Leonhardt
Koopman
Leusink

Suzuki is not HIP btw!!!

Scarpia

Quote from: Coopmv on October 16, 2010, 07:26:31 PM
But it would be re-issued under London, not Philips ...   :(
The London Label was retired long before Philips was.  It would be labeled Decca. 

In any case, I believe Philips Classics is essentially Pentatone now.  When Universal liquidated Philips, the Philips people formed a company that made recordings under contract for other labels, and they issue their own projects under Penatone.


dimmer

#511
Quote from: DavidW on October 17, 2010, 06:51:41 AM
I don't think you can even say soon to be complete for Gardiner.  He's not even half way.  12 volumes 2 cds each = 24, but it takes 50-60 cds to traverse the catalogue.  Even though Suzuki is much closer to finishing is he actually done?  You must not know what are the three complete HIP cycles, they are:

Harnoncourt/Leonhardt
Koopman
Leusink

Suzuki is not HIP btw!!!
Sorry I meant recent series (of which Leusink admittedly also counts as recent). I most definitely know the complete cycles, as I have all of both the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt and the Koopman series. Leusink I have only heard from a few early samples released legally on the web, but they seemed a little too rough and ready for me, so I didn't bother getting them, tempting as the Brilliant box set was.

Gardiner is most definitely complete - as you know the whole lot were recorded in the year 2000, but as far as I know all of them are now released (the final couple of volumes in September). I am missing a few but even then I have over 20 of the volumes. 

Suzuki is the slowest of the cycles, up to Vol 46 released, but many more recorded.  I think the latest concert I attended was preparation for the recording of Vol 58 or thereabouts.  I had an interesting conversation with Suzuki-san about what you do after 15 years of recording Bach, as he is near to completing all his recordings with no big project in mind to follow.  Not sure what you qualify as HIP, but Suzuki is on historical instruments, and his choir is probably as small as the one used by Koopman, Gardiner and Herreweghe, if OVPP is the criteria.

I would still stand by my order of preference: Gardiner, Suzuki, (Herreweghe if he was to do a complete series), Koopman, Harnoncourt/Leonhardt (all credit to them, but performance standards have definitely improved).  As I haven't heard much of Leusink I don't know where the performances slot in. I would be happy if I had any of the top 3 - all give compelling accounts of the music, all have different strengths, and all have their weaknesses.
I have nothing to say, I am saying it, and that is poetry.
John Cage

DavidW

Oh woops sorry Dimmer, of course Suzuki is hip what am I thinking?  Let's see this weekend I've said

* I've seen all of these movies! no wait I haven't seen the last
* Hey Dave you should go check out these towns, because I apparently I can't read that you're on a tour bus
* Suzuki isn't hip despite the fact that he is ovpp PI and the most well known hip cycle around
* Gardiner's series is highly incomplete because I forgot about the older recordings, like you know some of the ones I have

I guess I'll just go to back to bed now! :D

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Que on October 13, 2010, 09:54:30 PM
For Bach's secular cantatas Leonhardt's later series for Philips is not to be overlooked IMO! :) Hopefully Universal will do a nice box set reissue soon.





Q

Additionally, Leonhardt recorded an excellent disc with two secular cantatas on Alpha, three years ago:



Listening to that disc I thought even Cafe Zimmermann can be redeemed, under the right director: God, what a good vassals! If only they had a good lord!  :D

Samples here.


Antoine Marchand

Quote from: dimmer on October 10, 2010, 05:37:28 PM
... but I think the quality of Suzuki's soloists are better overall (as much as you can claim this over such a large and variable undertaking)...

This is a detail, but in my experience the opinion of some people about Koopman's cycle was marked for the inclusion of Barbara Schlick in the first volumes of that cycle, which included a good ammount of the most "popular" cantatas. I love Schlick's voice, but some people really hates her. 

The new erato

Quote from: DavidW on October 17, 2010, 06:51:41 AM
I don't think you can even say soon to be complete for Gardiner.  He's not even half way.  12 volumes 2 cds each = 24, but it takes 50-60 cds to traverse the catalogue. 
There's 27 volumes in the series, of which one is a single = 53 discs.

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: erato on October 17, 2010, 09:09:13 AM
There's 27 volumes in the series, of which one is a single = 53 discs.

Are you sure? I don't have that series, but I think vols. 14, 15 and 16 are singles.

Scarpia

It strikes me as so illogical that there are multiple cycles being made of these recordings for which the audience is quite small, resulting in cycles being canceled, or available in very expensive editions which have very limited circulation.  I would have thought it would have been interesting if the various players had pooled their resources and produced a collaborative cycle, i.e., Koopman, Gardiner, Suzuki,  etc.

The new erato

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 17, 2010, 09:20:48 AM
Are you sure? I don't have that series, but I think vols. 14, 15 and 16 are singles.
You're right!

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Scarpia on October 17, 2010, 09:25:33 AM
It strikes me as so illogical that there are multiple cycles being made of these recordings for which the audience is quite small, resulting in cycles being canceled, or available in very expensive editions which have very limited circulation.  I would have thought it would have been interesting if the various players had pooled their resources and produced a collaborative cycle, i.e., Koopman, Gardiner, Suzuki,  etc.

It would have been considered a great idea in the Soviet Union! (I mean if Bach had been allowed)  :D