The Bach Cantatas

[Antoine Marchand]

You're right!

Besides, some volumes include a different repertoire, i. e., not only cantatas but, for instance, concertos or motets. 

[DavidW]

It strikes me as so illogical that there are multiple cycles being made of these recordings for which the audience is quite small, resulting in cycles being canceled, or available in very expensive editions which have very limited circulation.  I would have thought it would have been interesting if the various players had pooled their resources and produced a collaborative cycle, i.e., Koopman, Gardiner, Suzuki,  etc.

+1 not only would it be more interesting, easier to complete and market, but they would also be done sooner and we could have more recordings with these conductors tackling other composers.  Bach has been hogging the HIP baroque scene ever since there was a HIP baroque scene.

[Scarpia]

It would have been considered a great idea in the Soviet Union! (I mean if Bach had been allowed) 

Are you under the impression that Harnoncourt/Leonhardt were following a directive from the Soviet Union?

[Antoine Marchand]

Are you under the impression that Harnoncourt/Leonhardt were following a directive from the Soviet Union?

Are you under the impression that Harnoncourt/Leonhardt were following a directive from the Soviet Union?

It was just a joke, Scarpia!  Anyway, those were other times. To finish a complete recording of the Bach cantatas seemed an impossible task; especially, to record them under HIP parameters. Therefore, a collaboration between Leonhardt and Harnoncourt was a quite natural idea. Today the divisions are not simply HIP v/s non HIP because the HIP movement itself is extremely heterogeneous. Have you read what thinks Koopman about Rifkin or Parrott or even Leonhardt about the project of his dear friend and pupil Sigiswald Kuijken?

On the other hand, although Koopman and Gardiner saw their projects cancelled (by Erato and Archiv, respectively), that fact was not an obstacle to follow forward and both of them have completed their cycles (well, I don't know if Gardiner cycle is finished).

Finally, although Koopman cycle is still extremely expensive -even in the economic package-, you can buy every of the other cycles at rather affordable prices (Harnnoncourt/Leonhardt, Suzuki, Leusink, even Gardiner these days on Presto Classical).   

[Scarpia]

It was just a joke, Scarpia!  Anyway, those were other times. To finish a complete recording of the Bach cantatas seemed an impossible task; especially, to record them under HIP parameters. Therefore, a collaboration between Leonhardt and Harnoncourt was a quite natural idea. Today the divisions are not simply HIP v/s non HIP because the HIP movement itself is extremely heterogeneous. Have you read what thinks Koopman about Rifkin or Parrott or even Leonhardt about the project of his dear friend and pupil Sigiswald Kuijken?

On the other hand, although Koopman and Gardiner saw their projects cancelled (by Erato and Archiv, respectively), that fact was not an obstacle to follow forward and both of them have completed their cycles (well, I don't know if Gardiner cycle is finished).

Finally, although Koopman cycle is still extremely expensive -even in the economic package-, you can buy every of the other cycles at rather affordable prices (Harnnoncourt/Leonhardt, Suzuki, Leusink, even Gardiner these days on Presto Classical).   

It may not be an impossible task these days, but it may be an economically non-viable task.   I am a fanatic with thousands of CDs and I want a Cantata cycle.  When I look at the market there is no complete cantata set that I could convince myself to pay the exorbitant prices asked.  (Harnoncourt is out, despite my great admiration for him, because of the boy sopranos.)  If these lunatics think I am too much of a rank amateur to be part of their target market, who are they targeting?  I'd like to know how many sets Koopman has sold.  It's not distributed in the US at all.  I suspect the number sold is in the hundereds, if that.

[Antoine Marchand]

It may not be an impossible task these days, but it may be an economically non-viable task.   I am a fanatic with thousands of CDs and I want a Cantata cycle.  When I look at the market there is no complete cantata set that I could convince myself to pay the exorbitant prices asked.  (Harnoncourt is out, despite my great admiration for him, because of the boy sopranos.)  If these lunatics think I am too much of a rank amateur to be part of their target market, who are they targeting?  I'd like to know how many sets Koopman has sold.  It's not distributed in the US at all.  I suspect the number sold is in the hundereds, if that.

I agree with you about Koopman. Some time ago I had a discussion here -with Jens, IIRC- because I said that the price of the newly repackaged Koopman's set was simply ridiculous. I collected separately those cantatas and the best price was always CD Universe in USA (every 3-CD set for almost $40, although today is a bit higher there). And always it's possible to collect single discs by different directors, although probably it's difficult because the market has accustomed to us to think in terms of "cycles", not individual recordings. Finally, if I were you, I would take a look on Presto Classical; these days they offer Gardiner's double sets slightly over $17 and the costs of shipping are really convenient.     

[kishnevi]

It may not be an impossible task these days, but it may be an economically non-viable task.   I am a fanatic with thousands of CDs and I want a Cantata cycle.  When I look at the market there is no complete cantata set that I could convince myself to pay the exorbitant prices asked.  (Harnoncourt is out, despite my great admiration for him, because of the boy sopranos.)  If these lunatics think I am too much of a rank amateur to be part of their target market, who are they targeting?  I'd like to know how many sets Koopman has sold.  It's not distributed in the US at all.  I suspect the number sold is in the hundereds, if that.

Is this one part of the series?

There's at least half a dozen recordings with similar cover art on Amazon, and I've seen this one and at least one other physically in the bins at Borders, although at the time I opted for other things. 

BTW, I don't particularly dislike the Brilliant box of secular cantatas:  the only serious complaint I have about it is the lack of texts.

[Antoine Marchand]

Is this one part of the series?

Yes, it's another re-re-re-issue of the same material, just re-grouped more "thematically". Originally, BWV 1 was part of the box 13; BWV 125, box 14 and 161, box 3.

[Coopmv]

It would have been considered a great idea in the Soviet Union! (I mean if Bach had been allowed) 

If the cantatas were written for Marx and Lenin ...

[Scarpia]

And always it's possible to collect single discs by different directors, although probably it's difficult because the market has accustomed to us to think in terms of "cycles", not individual recordings.

That might be possible if the different cycles didn't group the cantatas in idiosyncratic, incompatible ways.

[Antoine Marchand]

This afternoon I was listening to some cantatas and, suddenly, I recalled this problem in Harnoncourt's BWV 29 (from the Teldec complete cycle). In my system that cantata presents some severe problems of distortion, especially when Kurt Equiluz sings the aria for tenor "Halleluja, Stärk und Macht" (0:58).

Then I recalled that Harnoncourt recorded again that cantata short time ago, including a limited edition with the old version, mmmmh...

Has somebody noticed the same problem?



   

[kishnevi]

This afternoon I was listening to some cantatas and, suddenly, I recalled this problem in Harnoncourt's BWV 29 (from the Teldec complete cycle). In my system that cantata presents some severe problems of distortion, especially when Kurt Equiluz sings the aria for tenor "Halleluja, Stärk und Macht" (0:58).

Then I recalled that Harnoncourt recorded again that cantata short time ago, including a limited edition with the old version, mmmmh...

Has somebody noticed the same problem?

I have the limited edition; quite frankly I was so put off the earlier recording's use of boy sopranos that I've only played it once.  I was so put off, in fact, that whatever other flaws were present passed by unnoticed. 

The new recordings, btw, are available as a single disc without the older versions.

[Antoine Marchand]

I have the limited edition; quite frankly I was so put off the earlier recording's use of boy sopranos that I've only played it once.  I was so put off, in fact, that whatever other flaws were present passed by unnoticed. 

The new recordings, btw, are available as a single disc without the older versions.

Did you like the new recording at least?

[Bulldog]

It strikes me as so illogical that there are multiple cycles being made of these recordings for which the audience is quite small, resulting in cycles being canceled, or available in very expensive editions which have very limited circulation.  I would have thought it would have been interesting if the various players had pooled their resources and produced a collaborative cycle, i.e., Koopman, Gardiner, Suzuki,  etc.

I don't know about the logic of it all, but I like it the way it is.  The companies put out their 1, 2 or 3 disc recordings, and I acquire what I want from the offerings and feel I get maximum variety.  It helps that I'm not interested in complete cycles.

[Marc]

It strikes me as so illogical that there are multiple cycles being made of these recordings for which the audience is quite small, resulting in cycles being canceled, or available in very expensive editions which have very limited circulation.  I would have thought it would have been interesting if the various players had pooled their resources and produced a collaborative cycle, i.e., Koopman, Gardiner, Suzuki,  etc.

I don't know about the logic of it all, but I like it the way it is.  The companies put out their 1, 2 or 3 disc recordings, and I acquire what I want from the offerings and feel I get maximum variety.  It helps that I'm not interested in complete cycles.

I also like it.

Took the chance to get the entire Harnoncourt/Leonhardt cycle for a budget price, got myself saddled up with Leusink and decided in the nineties (after a first listening) to go for Suzuki instead of Koopman, but also bought some single Koopman issues and borrowed one or two at the library. Combined with some Herreweghe, Rifkin, Gardiner and Kuijken (et al) I'm a happy person now.

About the 'logic' of it all: I think in this part of the world (North-West Europe) the audience for Bach's vocal works is rather high.
Also if live performances are concerned. In my town for instance, there are so-called Cantata services organized on quite a regular base: normal (mostly protestant) church services, combined with a cantata-for-the-day composed by a certain J.S. Bach.

Not to mention all the Passionen, Hohe Messen and Weihnachts-Oratorien through the seasons.

[Antoine Marchand]

My position is less elegant: I would be totally happy having every complete cycle of cantatas ever recorded and every single disc not forming part of an integral. However, I don't have money or space enough.

Different structures of the personality, I suppose.

I believe the "completists" have -when we are not mere "collectionists"-, the suspect that beauty is watching for us in all parts, even, even behind a mediocre recording. A less satisfactory recording is not a dead weight. 

But there are not time, money or space to buy every recording and I have had to make some decisions.

The first cycle I decided to buy/complete was Koopman, but before to complete it, I purchased the big box of Brilliant -when it needed a lot of space because of the jewel cases- and I have purchased two new complete sets since then. Naturally, I have a lot of individual discs, too (Herreweghe, Rifkin, Pierlot, Fasolis, etc.).

But did I really need all those discs? Yes, I need them because Bach is a very demanding love, who makes some wierd demands, as sometimes do some tyrannical girls.

My only remorse: not to have sufficient time to study exhaustively the cantatas, the most amazing musical corpus ever produced by the human being.

[The new erato]

I think one needs one cycle to be sure to cover them all, as some aren't particularly often recorded. The one can fill in with discs of sepcial quality, personal favorites etc. Of course, that would be the sane approach. Lots of wisdom in Antoine's post BTW.

[kishnevi]

Did you like the new recording at least?

let me put it this way: I'll stick to Gardiner and Herreweghe, which are the two main components of what I have of the cantatas (I don't have a complete cycle, or even bits and pieces of cycles to make a complete set).

I did play the old recording tonight.  I didn't hear any distortion, but the orchestra often sounded rather muffled, as if it was being recorded through a cloth or something, especially in the sinfonia of BWV 29.   Of the three boy soprano soloists, two sounded better than what I remembered, but the boy who sings in BWV 61 (one Seppi Kronwitter)has absolutely no breath control and sounds like he's panting through most of his aria.  And while the boy who sings in BWV 140 (Alan Bergius) is good enough, the context nowadays (love duet with an adult male partner, even if it is a mystical love duet) is a little strange. The boy soprano in BWV 29 is also capable enough, but anonymous, being listed only as "soloist of the Wiener Sangknaben".   Going by the details in the liner notes, the old recording was not remastered. 

I'll probably listen to the new recording tomorrow or the day after and report back with detailed impressions (been a few months since I've listened to it).  For some reason, I seem to have played a different version of BWV 140 for the last three or four nights in a row.  One thing to note is that while Christian Gerharer is a soloist in the new recording, he actually only does on 48 second recitative in BWV 29, and Bernarda Fink does hardly better--including recitative and aria, two minutes worth of performing time.

The new recording uses the Arnold Schoenberg Chor and female sopranos;  in the liner notes Harnoncourt says he made the switch because boys voices are breaking at an earlier age nowadays.

[Antoine Marchand]

let me put it this way: I'll stick to Gardiner and Herreweghe, which are the two main components of what I have of the cantatas (I don't have a complete cycle, or even bits and pieces of cycles to make a complete set).

I did play the old recording tonight.  I didn't hear any distortion, but the orchestra often sounded rather muffled, as if it was being recorded through a cloth or something, especially in the sinfonia of BWV 29.   Of the three boy soprano soloists, two sounded better than what I remembered, but the boy who sings in BWV 61 (one Seppi Kronwitter)has absolutely no breath control and sounds like he's panting through most of his aria.  And while the boy who sings in BWV 140 (Alan Bergius) is good enough, the context nowadays (love duet with an adult male partner, even if it is a mystical love duet) is a little strange. The boy soprano in BWV 29 is also capable enough, but anonymous, being listed only as "soloist of the Wiener Sangknaben".   Going by the details in the liner notes, the old recording was not remastered. 

I'll probably listen to the new recording tomorrow or the day after and report back with detailed impressions (been a few months since I've listened to it).  For some reason, I seem to have played a different version of BWV 140 for the last three or four nights in a row.  One thing to note is that while Christian Gerharer is a soloist in the new recording, he actually only does on 48 second recitative in BWV 29, and Bernarda Fink does hardly better--including recitative and aria, two minutes worth of performing time.

The new recording uses the Arnold Schoenberg Chor and female sopranos;  in the liner notes Harnoncourt says he made the switch because boys voices are breaking at an earlier age nowadays.

Thanks for sharing your impressions, kishnevi. 

Tonight I'm listening to Suzuki's disc 7: BWV 61, 63, 132 & 172.

Yesterday I did some research on You Tube and one video with BWV 29 had exactly the same distortion (0:58 and several times after that):

http://www.youtube.com/v/bIkxz0etjmc

BTW, what a great tenor was Kurt Equiluz!

[jlaurson]

l
I did play the old recording tonight.  I didn't hear any distortion, but the orchestra often sounded rather muffled, as if it was being recorded through a cloth or something, especially in the sinfonia of BWV 29.   Of the three boy soprano soloists, two sounded better than what I remembered, but the boy who sings in BWV 61 (one Seppi Kronwitter)has absolutely no breath control and sounds like he's panting through most of his aria.  And while the boy who sings in BWV 140 (Alan Bergius) is good enough, the context nowadays (love duet with an adult male partner, even if it is a mystical love duet) is a little strange. The boy soprano in BWV 29 is also capable enough, but anonymous, being listed only as "soloist of the Wiener Sangknaben".   Going by the details in the liner notes, the old recording was not remastered. ...

my impressions from last year: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-9.html

# 9 - Reissue

Bach, 3 Cantatas juxtaposed, Harnoncourt, Deutsche Harmonia Mundi 756794


J.S.Bach, Cantatas BWV 140, 61, 29 (x2),
N.Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien et al.
DHM
Technically this isn't a re-issue but another heartening sign that Sony (through its Deutsche Harmonia Mundi imprint) has started to put more thought into their classical releases. Nikolaus Harnoncourt in new recordings of three Bach Cantatas (BWV 140 "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme", BWV 61 "Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland", and BWV 29 "Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir". Harnoncourt recording Bach is an event; when he works with soloists like Christine Schäfer, Bernarda Fink, Werner Güra, Christian Gerhaher, and Gerald Finley—all among my very favorite singers—even more so. The result is, not surprisingly, a very fine, notable new Bach Cantata CD that dedicated Bachians would not want to miss. What turns this from "very fine" to "best of the year" is this twist, though: Sony licensed and includes the same three cantatas from Harnoncourt's Alte Musik/Teldec cantata cycle and allows direct comparison between his Bach from 30 years ago and what he does now.

The results of comparison can be curious: I liked the earlier version of BWV 140 so much, I could see myself preferring it over the newer version (with Julia Kleiter, Kurt Streit, and Anton Scharinger). The Concentus Musicus has become a more refined orchestra and the soloists and especially the choir(s) (famous boys' choirs then, the highly professional Arnold Schoenberg Choir now) are better now than they were. But there is something quite natural, quite enchanting to the old ways. Even the boy soprano is no bother in this cantata: one accepts the natural shortcomings of a boy's voice and tries to focus instead on its elements that another, trained adult voice cannot possess. Kudos, little Alan. But in BWV 61, the stunner among the newly recorded three cantatas, the boy soprano turns matters into perpetual cringe. Seppi tries way too hard—and comparison to Schäfer is simply cruel. Sold at the price of one CD, this side-by-side new and re-release is a winner.