The Bach Cantatas

[bigshot]

I love the set, but I'm not so stringent about HIP as a lot of other people. There's some fantastic music making in that box.

[Coopmv]

I'm with you. Rilling's Bach (any) just entirely rubs me the wrong way - rhythmic treatment, phrasing  - it just sounds off.....and terribly dull. Despite some very fine singers he uses.

Q

When I listen to Rilling's Bach, I try to get the best out of the soloists since he did have some great soloists like Arleen Auger, Julia Hamari, etc in many of his recordings.  Indeed, phrasing and tempi of his orchestral playing may not be as pleasing as those by Herreweghe, Leonhardt and Gardiner, the outstanding vocal performances just cannot be summarily dismissed IMO ...

[Jay F]

When I listen to Rilling's Bach, I try to get the best out of the soloists since he did have some great soloists like Arleen Auger, Julia Hamari, etc in many of his recordings.  Indeed, phrasing and tempi of his orchestral playing may not be as pleasing as those by Herreweghe, Leonhardt and Gardiner, the outstanding vocal performances just cannot be summarily dismissed IMO ...

Stuart - What would you recommend as the first three CDs to buy of Bach's Cantatas, to someone who's not that familiar with them?

[Coopmv]

Stuart - What would you recommend as the first three CDs to buy of Bach's Cantatas, to someone who's not that familiar with them?

Personally, I started with Cantatas No. 80, 140 and 147 since they are the best known cantatas composed by JS Bach.  Cantatas No. 80, Mighty Fortress is our Lord, whose libretto was actually by Martin Luther, the great German Protestant reformer, clearly reflected JS Bach as a devout Lutheran.  Magnificat - Cantata No. 243 is also excellent.  But then, all of Bach works range from good to great.

[knight66]

I find it difficult to believe you would promote this version of the Magnificat. This is fairly early Eliot Gardiner, the unreconstructed, hard driven, speed merchant. The tenor is rushed off his feet and the whole thing is done as though done for a dare.

Mike

[Jay F]

I find it difficult to believe you would promote this version of the Magnificat. This is fairly early Eliot Gardiner, the unreconstructed, hard driven, speed merchant. The tenor is rushed off his feet and the whole thing is done as though done for a dare.

Mike

Assuming you're talking to Coopmv, he and I know each other, and he is aware that I have a proclivity for buying Philips recordings. 

[knight66]

What specific qualities do Phillips display that might temp you to buy, even if the performance is not necessarily recommended? I don't understand the aim to buy the product of a specific company.

Mike

[Marc]

Personally, I started with Cantatas No. 80, 140 and 147 since they are the best known cantatas composed by JS Bach.  Cantatas No. 80, Mighty Fortress is our Lord, whose libretto was actually by Martin Luther, the great German Protestant reformer, clearly reflected JS Bach as a devout Lutheran.  Magnificat - Cantata No. 243 is also excellent.  But then, all of Bach works range from good to great.

Not a bad selection indeed!

BWV 80 and the Magnificat BWV 243 are coupled in a very good recording by Philippe Herreweghe and his gang (Harmonia Mundi).
BWV 140 & 147 are coupled by many others (I guess), a.o. by John Eliot Gardiner (DG/Archiv). A bit shallow, but lovely singing in the duetto's of BWV 140 and also by Ruth Holton in her aria "Bereite dir, Jesu, noch itzo die Bahn" of BWV 147. Unfortunately, the famous chorale(s) on "Jesus bleibet meine Freude" (AKA "Jesus, Joy of Man's Desiring) are taken too fast IMO.
For a third try-out disc I would go for some early Bach cantatas. The recording of BWV 4, 12, 106 and 196 by Cantus Cölln & Konrad Junghänel is very good (Harmonia Mundi again, also on hybrid SACD). It's OVPP (One Voice Per Part), but sung and played with great intensity. Again, though: tempi are sometimes too rushed, especially in the first and final chorus of BWV 4.

[Jay F]

What specific qualities do Phillips display that might tempt you to buy, even if the performance is not necessarily recommended? I don't understand the aim to buy the product of a specific company.

Mike

Oh, I don't buy them to the exclusion of all other brands, or anything.

I liked the first two classical CDs I ever bought (1987), Brendel's Schubert 960 and Mozart 488 (PC 23) and 595 (PC 27), so I continued buying Philips CDs (among other brands). I guess it was the sound quality, plus the fact that I was brand new to classical, and any method of winnowing out the good ones from all that was available then was a real help. I eventually discovered Penguin, and became more familiar with a wider range of labels, artists, and composers, but Philips continued to seem like a label I could depend on.

Then, when I started buying LPs in 1998, I generally found the sound quality better on the used Philips Records I found than, say, most LPs on DG, EMI/Angel or CBS. When I joined another music forum in 2007, I met Coopmv, and discovered he had preferred the s.q. of Philips Records back in the LP era (which was before I started collecting classical, FWIW), so it became a topic of conversation for us.

In any case, I've ordered the JEG Magnificat. And I will probably order Herreweghe's if I can decide which edition I want. I have an equally strong liking for many HM recordings.

[Jay F]

BWV 80 and the Magnificat BWV 243 are coupled in a very good recording by Philippe Herreweghe and his gang (Harmonia Mundi).

I'm going to listen to the Gardiner first, but I'll probably buy the Herreweghe, too. There are numerous iterations available. Which one do you have?

BWV 140 & 147 are coupled by many others (I guess), a.o. by John Eliot Gardiner (DG/Archiv). A bit shallow, but lovely singing in the duetto's of BWV 140 and also by Ruth Holton in her aria "Bereite dir, Jesu, noch itzo die Bahn" of BWV 147. Unfortunately, the famous chorale(s) on "Jesus bleibet meine Freude" (AKA "Jesus, Joy of Man's Desiring) are taken too fast IMO.

This is the only disc I already have of the Cantatas. I'm listening to it now. I'm enjoying it, though I'm not in love with it. I wonder if it's that "shallow" quality. Do you have one you like more?

[Marc]

I'm going to listen to the Gardiner first, but I'll probably buy the Herreweghe, too. There are numerous iterations available. Which one do you have?

I think the first one issued, around 1990.
But yes, it has been re-released many times since. Contratenor Gérard Lesne, who's one of my faves, is among the singers.

EDIT: Herreweghe recorded the 'standard' score of the Magnicifat in D-Major (BWV 243) AND also the alternative Christmas version in E flat (BWV 243a). Both of them are recommendable. The 2nd one is available as a 2-cd called 'Leipziger Weihnachtskantaten'. But only the first recording (BWV 243) is combined with BWV 80 and has been re-issued many times.

[Jay F]

I think the first one issued, around 1990.
But yes, it has been re-released many times since. Contratenor Gérard Lesne, who's one of my faves, is among the singers.

EDIT: Herreweghe recorded the 'standard' score of the Magnicifat in D-Major (BWV 243) AND also the alternative Christmas version in E flat (BWV 243a). Both of them are recommendable. The 2nd one is available as a 2-cd called 'Leipziger Weihnachtskantaten'. But only the first recording (BWV 243) is combined with BWV 80 and has been re-issued many times.

I've found a 4-CD box set that has both of them, plus BWV80, 8, 63, 125, and 138. I think I might buy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Magnificat-Christmas-Cantatas/dp/B003QLY5J2/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1318183750&sr=1-4.

[Coopmv]

Not a bad selection indeed!

BWV 80 and the Magnificat BWV 243 are coupled in a very good recording by Philippe Herreweghe and his gang (Harmonia Mundi).
BWV 140 & 147 are coupled by many others (I guess), a.o. by John Eliot Gardiner (DG/Archiv). A bit shallow, but lovely singing in the duetto's of BWV 140 and also by Ruth Holton in her aria "Bereite dir, Jesu, noch itzo die Bahn" of BWV 147. Unfortunately, the famous chorale(s) on "Jesus bleibet meine Freude" (AKA "Jesus, Joy of Man's Desiring) are taken too fast IMO.
For a third try-out disc I would go for some early Bach cantatas. The recording of BWV 4, 12, 106 and 196 by Cantus Cölln & Konrad Junghänel is very good (Harmonia Mundi again, also on hybrid SACD). It's OVPP (One Voice Per Part), but sung and played with great intensity. Again, though: tempi are sometimes too rushed, especially in the first and final chorus of BWV 4.

BTW, I do agree with you and Mike that JE Gardiner was a tad too fast in the Bach cantatas he recorded a while back.  That is why over the past two years, I have added most if not all of Herreweghe's recordings to my JS Bach choral works collection ... 

[Coopmv]

I've found a 4-CD box set that has both of them, plus BWV80, 8, 63, 125, and 138. I think I might buy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Magnificat-Christmas-Cantatas/dp/B003QLY5J2/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1318183750&sr=1-4.

The 4-CD set probably includes the following single, which has only been added to my collection a few months ago.  BTW, a more recent release by Veldhoven and the Netherlands Bach Society, which is now in my SACD collection, is also worth looking into ...

[Josquin des Prez]

Anybody knows how long before the completing of the Suzuki set? I decided a long time ago make it my primary set but its taking forever. Its rubs me that i do not yet posses the complete cantatas of Bach.

[Bulldog]

I find it difficult to believe you would promote this version of the Magnificat. This is fairly early Eliot Gardiner, the unreconstructed, hard driven, speed merchant. The tenor is rushed off his feet and the whole thing is done as though done for a dare.

Mike

I rather like Gardiner's Magnificat - different strokes and all that.

[Marc]

I've found a 4-CD box set that has both of them, plus BWV80, 8, 63, 125, and 138. I think I might buy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Magnificat-Christmas-Cantatas/dp/B003QLY5J2/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1318183750&sr=1-4.

Indeed. Both recordings of the Magnificat, plus BWV 80. PLUS: the rest is also top-notch Bach/Herreweghe. The alto aria of BWV 125 is almost unreal in its beauty. This box would make a splendid choice IMO.

[Marc]

Anybody knows how long before the completing of the Suzuki set? I decided a long time ago make it my primary set but its taking forever. Its rubs me that i do not yet posses the complete cantatas of Bach.

(Almost) the same here. Still, I have the Leusink (never listen to it though) and the 'classic' Leonhardt/Harnoncourt (was temporarily budget-priced around here some 5 years ago).

Suzuki has got probably about 10 volumes to go. I think it will take him around 3 or 4 years to complete from now.

But you know how it goes with the Far East: they teach us how to be patient.
Also in Japan? Maybe not, but if a Japanese conductor combines his Far East roots with the patient music of Bach .... I rest my case.

Anyway, my own Bach/Suzuki collection has been slowly growing since 1996 or so. And yes, I've learned to be patient.

[Coopmv]

(Almost) the same here. Still, I have the Leusink (never listen to it though) and the 'classic' Leonhardt/Harnoncourt (was temporarily budget-priced around here some 5 years ago).

Suzuki has got probably about 10 volumes to go. I think it will take him around 3 or 4 years to complete from now.

But you know how it goes with the Far East: they teach us how to be patient.
Also in Japan? Maybe not, but if a Japanese conductor combines his Far East roots with the patient music of Bach .... I rest my case.

Anyway, my own Bach/Suzuki collection has been slowly growing since 1996 or so. And yes, I've learned to be patient.

How long was this set in the making, i.e. what was the total elapsed time between the recordings of the first and the last cantata?  I am quite happy with this set, which I bought in early 2009 but still have another 35 CD's to listen through.  LOL

[Marc]

How long was this set in the making, i.e. what was the total elapsed time between the recordings of the first and the last cantata?  I am quite happy with this set, which I bought in early 2009 but still have another 35 CD's to listen through.  LOL

Very patient Europeans: from 1971 to 1989.
Take your time with listening!