The Bach Cantatas

[jlaurson]

And another thing. What do people know here about the counter-tenor tradition? I mean, did Bach use countertenors or catsrati or women or  what?

Castratri were not really happening in Germany, and certainly not in church services.
Similarly, women were not permitted to actively participate in church services. (Though Bach certainly wrote specifically for the female voice elsewhere.)
Counter tenors also were not a common tradition outside of England and Italy and already on the decline in Bach's time. (Partly due to a spurt of popularity in castrati elsewhere.)
Soprano and alto parts were sung by boys.

[Mandryka]

Castratri were not really happening in Germany, and certainly not in church services.
Similarly, women were not permitted to actively participate in church services. (Though Bach certainly wrote specifically for the female voice elsewhere.)
Counter tenors also were not a common tradition outside of England and Italy and already on the decline in Bach's time. (Partly due to a spurt of popularity in castrati elsewhere.)
Soprano and alto parts were sung by boys.

Great -- that's clear. 

So there's no connection between authenticity and countertenors. It just happened that Deller was connected to pioneers of authentic performance like Leonhardt.

I must say I do like boy's voices.

[jlaurson]

Great -- that's clear. 

So there's no connection between authenticity and countertenors. It just happened that Deller was connected to pioneers of authentic performance like Leonhardt.

I must say I do like boy's voices.

Having been a boy's voice, I do, too. In theory, at least, they're to be preferred in choruses over ladyfolk. But it's hard to drill them to absolute perfection. And their application in solo parts is fraught with problems of timidity and immaturity (and balance) that undo most of their slight natural head start. I was spoiled, in that my choir was one where there were two modes: "Perfect" and "Try Again"... and ever since I've been unable to abide anything less than perfection. (Same with classical ballet; either the Bolshoi or first cast of Mariinsky -- or nothing at all, please.)

Countertenors vs. women in Bach's cantatas are different ways of dealing with the absence of boys. Why counter-tenor at all? That's actually a MUCH BETTER question than it's lack of being asked would make it appear. Perhaps its one way of approximating 'authenticity' by 'not using a woman'. But it's hardly more meaningfully authentic than using a mezzo. And it's not like Bach was a prude who didn't like women or their voices.

[kishnevi]

Having been a boy's voice, I do, too. In theory, at least, they're to be preferred in choruses over ladyfolk. But it's hard to drill them to absolute perfection. And their application in solo parts is fraught with problems of timidity and immaturity (and balance) that undo most of their slight natural head start. I was spoiled, in that my choir was one where there were two modes: "Perfect" and "Try Again"... and ever since I've been unable to abide anything less than perfection. (Same with classical ballet; either the Bolshoi or first cast of Mariinsky -- or nothing at all, please.)

Countertenors vs. women in Bach's cantatas are different ways of dealing with the absence of boys. Why counter-tenor at all? That's actually a MUCH BETTER question than it's lack of being asked would make it appear. Perhaps its one way of approximating 'authenticity' by 'not using a woman'. But it's hardly more meaningfully authentic than using a mezzo. And it's not like Bach was a prude who didn't like women or their voices.

I have a hard time  dealing with trebles/boy sopranos--they sound too shallow to me (breathwise, not emotionwise).  Probably adult sized voices are what my ear expects and judges by.  Ironically, one of the few instances in which I liked the result of using a boy soprano is one which almost everyone else considers a bad one--Bernstein's DG Mahler 4. 

And I say this as someone who spent a (not very long) period of time as a boy soprano in chorus.

[jlaurson]

And I say this as someone who spent a (not very long) period of time as a boy soprano in chorus.

Yes. I cringe vicariously, when I have to hear that. But I've heard spectacular performances from boy choristers live... in Bach (in one of van Veldhoven's M-Passions in Narden) and in opera. Was it a fairly recentish Magic Flute, perhaps... or something else?! In any case, quite astonishing. And not with that impression of shallow wincing that you (accurately) describe. 

One of my odd hangovers from chorister-time is that I absolutely oppose and resent the mentioning of chorister contributions (solo or group) by name rather than by the generic "Soloist of the SoAndSo Saengerknaben" (or Domspatzen et al.).

[kishnevi]

Yes. I cringe vicariously, when I have to hear that. But I've heard spectacular performances from boy choristers live... in Bach (in one of van Veldhoven's M-Passions in Narden) and in opera. Was it a fairly recentish Magic Flute, perhaps... or something else?! In any case, quite astonishing. And not with that impression of shallow wincing that you (accurately) describe. 

One of my odd hangovers from chorister-time is that I absolutely oppose and resent the mentioning of chorister contributions (solo or group) by name rather than by the generic "Soloist of the SoAndSo Saengerknaben" (or Domspatzen et al.).

You've reminded me--I've never seen or heard a production of Zauberflote that doesn't use boys to sing the three genies, and they've all seemed to do it perfectly.  Boys' voices seem to be perfect for those roles.   Do we know if Mozart used boys for those parts?  If so presumably he wrote it with boys voices in mind, which would explain why it always works with children's voices.   And there are various roles in operas which were written for children, so obviously they work there.

But I think some things in Bach (to return to thread duty) ought be sung by adults (male or female) and not boys.  How many 12 year old boys, for instance, can get the emotional intensity that Lorraine Hunt Lieberson brought to "Ich hab genug"?

[jlaurson]

You've reminded me--I've never seen or heard a production of Zauberflote that doesn't use boys to sing the three genies, and they've all seemed to do it perfectly.  Boys' voices seem to be perfect for those roles.   Do we know if Mozart used boys for those parts?  If so presumably he wrote it with boys voices in mind, which would explain why it always works with children's voices.   And there are various roles in operas which were written for children, so obviously they work there.

But I think some things in Bach (to return to thread duty) ought be sung by adults (male or female) and not boys.  How many 12 year old boys, for instance, can get the emotional intensity that Lorraine Hunt Lieberson brought to "Ich hab genug"?

1.) Yes. He did write those with children's voices in mind; at the premiere they were two boy choristers and one girl -- the daughter of Schikaneder.
2.) ...but if he wrote for those kind of voices and it works... so did Bach in his cantatas. So I'm not sure if that counts. Unless Mozart, which is perfectly arguable, has a special touch for writing for kids... or, perhaps more plausible, the context of the opera allows a better fit for their voices.

3.) True, that: Lieberson in bwv 82 is the stuff to kneed down in front of.

[Mandryka]

What do you think of the way Hunt-Lieberson makes the lullaby almost grind to  halt a couple of times?

Someone posted here to say that Egmond/Brüggen is the "greatest" Ich habe genueg (the post has mysteriously disappeared) so I dusted it down and listened. Lieberson seems to find more complex feelings about death than Egmond, whose really quite cheerful about it. Maybe Lieberson makes Bach more of a contemporary -- at least for me, as a 21st century non believer.

[jlaurson]

What do you think of the way Hunt-Lieberson makes the lullaby almost grind to  halt a couple of times?

Someone posted here to say that Egmond/Brüggen is the "greatest" Ich habe genueg (the post has mysteriously disappeared) so I dusted it down and listened. Lieberson seems to find more complex feelings about death than Egmond, whose really quite cheerful about it. Maybe Lieberson makes Bach more of a contemporary -- at least for me, as a 21st century non believer.

A Seon recording, with Egmond, right? I'm not sure if I have that. If I do, I certainly can't recall anythign about it. "Cheerful" sounds rather more like what Bach would have had in mind... "Ich habe genug" is not really about resignation. Well, it is, today, but the context then was different. Which is why I agree... Lieberson (and Peter Sellars) translate the cantata into a 2002 sensibility. The result goes to show that authenticity is decidedly a sub-branch of awesomeness, and hardly its precondition.

[knight66]

What do you think of the way Hunt-Lieberson makes the lullaby almost grind to  halt a couple of times?

Someone posted here to say that Egmond/Brüggen is the "greatest" Ich habe genueg (the post has mysteriously disappeared) so I dusted it down and listened. Lieberson seems to find more complex feelings about death than Egmond, whose really quite cheerful about it. Maybe Lieberson makes Bach more of a contemporary -- at least for me, as a 21st century non believer.

I agree that Hunt Lieberson can mine this music in a way that makes you hear it anew. She is not alone. I reviewed a disc of hers where the aria in question was performed at almost half the normal speed. The introduction sounded like a dirge. But the instant she started to sing, the approach became clear and she found things in the aria no one else I know of has presented to the listener. Some great artists can break the rules and crack open the music, without destroying it.

Mike

[JaapT]

Some comments on the use of counter tenors. They were certainly used in the time of Bach, and are certainly not a sort of stand-ins for castrati or boy singers. In fact Christoph Wolff in his Bach biography lists even a few of the Weimar singers by name (Table 6.2):
J P Weichardt and J C Gerrmann (Discants=soprano), C G Bernhardi and J J Graff (alto).  In Weimar of course all musicians were payed court-musicians, unlike in Leipzig where Bach had to teach the pupils of the Thomas school. But even there he must have use falsettists. I read on the cantata website that C P E Bach was a good falsettist (I am not sure what the documentation is for that). Where else than in Leipizig must he have discovered this gift?

For Weimar it has been speculated that Bach may have made use of boys from the local school. Interestingly, if this is not the case then the Weimar cantatas should have been performed with one or at best two voices per part. Also of interest is that it was much more common then than now to use falsettists for the soprano parts. Perhaps Phillipe Jarousky should get involved in some cantata projects.

Castrati were of course an italian tradition. Perhaps Bach heard some of them when they toured Germany and sang in Operas, for example in Dresden. Handel of course made heavy use of castrati.

[jlaurson]

Castrati were of course an italian tradition. Perhaps Bach heard some of them when they toured Germany and sang in Operas, for example in Dresden. Handel of course made heavy use of castrati.

Bach didn't have the balls to use castrati.

[Antoine Marchand]

Bach didn't have the balls to use castrati.

... or, at least, he appreciated that part of the human body less than Handel. 

[jlaurson]

... or, at least, he appreciated that part of the human body less than Handel. 

LESS? Obviously more. The man had 20 children... the very idea of castrati probably made him flinch in vicarious pain.

[JaapT]

He said something which niggled at me a bit – it's to do with BWV 170. He says that Bach describes the organ part as "infernal bawling and drawling" Is that right? And then he goes on to suggest that the Leonhardt's 1985 performance is "unfortunate". Well, why? Are there more "infernal" performances of it on record? Which ones? I rather like Leonhardt there – I certainly prefer it to the 1956 one with Deller, partly because I prefer Paul Esswood to Alfred Deller on Vanguard.

Taruskin is indeed rather negative about Leonhardt here, and I am not sure this is justified. Leonhardt's performance sounds fine to me. The "infernal bawling and drawling" is not a quote from Bach, but just the cantata text, and it is not clear that this should directly refer to the organ. I have a recording of BWV 170 by Andreas Scholl/Herreweghe that I prefer over Leonhardt's, but this has more to do with Scholl's beautiful voice. I am not sure, I hear much more bawling and drawling in this one either. I do not share Taruskin's preference for Harnoncourt, and general like Leonhardt's share of the work. The division between the workload was according to Harnoncourt/Leonhardt based on the instrumentalist that each had at their disposal. So Leonhardt took many cantatas in which flute or recorders were important, as he had Frans Bruggen to his disposal.

As for Deller. I find the old recording by Deller/Leonhardt very endearing, but technically inadequate. This has more to do with the playing of the old instruments, which was then really in its infancy. Deller is really great I think.

[Mandryka]

Taruskin is indeed rather negative about Leonhardt here, and I am not sure this is justified. Leonhardt's performance sounds fine to me. The "infernal bawling and drawling" is not a quote from Bach, but just the cantata text, and it is not clear that this should directly refer to the organ. I have a recording of BWV 170 by Andreas Scholl/Herreweghe that I prefer over Leonhardt's, but this has more to do with Scholl's beautiful voice. I am not sure, I hear much more bawling and drawling in this one either. I do not share Taruskin's preference for Harnoncourt, and general like Leonhardt's share of the work. The division between the workload was according to Harnoncourt/Leonhardt based on the instrumentalist that each had at their disposal. So Leonhardt took many cantatas in which flute or recorders were important, as he had Frans Bruggen to his disposal.

As for Deller. I find the old recording by Deller/Leonhardt very endearing, but technically inadequate. This has more to do with the playing of the old instruments, which was then really in its infancy. Deller is really great I think.

Is it a good translation?  Those words bawling and drawling have quite specific English meanings I think. One is a certain type of crying, the other a certain way of speaking.

I'm going to listen to Deller again. On the whole I like his earlier (pre -Vanguiard) records more then the ones onbiously branded as Vangiard. This CD was a real eye opener for me:



I'm assuming the stuff there is pre-Vanguard -- I've never studied the Deller discography very systematically.

One thing about Ergmond/Brueggen I didn't say is that the orchestral part is wonderful -- is it Bruggen playing the oboe?

And finally, all these snatched converations about death we've been having here has made me think that Egmond/Bruggen vs Hunt-Lieberson shows something quite important about the limitations of a certain type of HIP project.

[kishnevi]

Here is an interlinear translation of BWV 170 as given on the Bach Cantatas website.  "bawling and drawling" does not seem to be a literal translation.

1   
Aria [Alto]

   
Oboe d'amore e Violino I all' unisono, Violino II, Viola, Continuo

   
Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust,
Contented peace,beloved delight of the soul,
Dich kann man nicht bei Höllensünden,
you cannot be found among the sins of hell,
Wohl aber Himmelseintracht finden;
but only where there is heavenly harmony;
Du stärkst allein die schwache Brust.
You alone strengthen the weak breast.
Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust,
Contented peace,beloved delight of the soul,
Drum sollen lauter Tugendgaben
For this reason nothing but the gifts of virtue
n meinem Herzen Wohnung haben.
should have any place in my heart.

   


2   
Recitative [Alto]

   
Continuo

   
Die Welt, das Sündenhaus,
The world, that place of sin,
Bricht nur in Höllenlieder aus
bursts out only in hellish songs
Und sucht durch Hass und Neid
and strives through hatred and envy
Des Satans Bild an sich zu tragen.
to bear upon itself the image of Satan.
Ihr Mund ist voller Ottergift,
Its mouth is full of snake's venom
Der oft die Unschuld tödlich trifft,
that often deals a mortal blow to the innocent
Und will allein von Racha ! Racha!sagen.
And only wants to say 'racha' [you worthless person]
Gerechter Gott, wie weit
Most just God, how far
Ist doch der Mensch von dir entfernet;
are people therefore estranged from you;
Du liebst, jedoch sein Mund
you love, but their mouth
Macht Fluch und Feindschaft kund
proclaims curses and enmity
Und will den Nächsten nur mit Füßen treten.
And they only want to tread their neighbour underfoot.
Ach! diese Schuld ist schwerlich zu verbeten.
Ah! it is difficult to gain pardon for such guilt through prayer.

   


3   
Aria [Alto]

   
Organo obligato a 2 claviature, Violino I/II e Viola all' unisono, Organo

   
Wie jammern mich doch die verkehrten Herzen,
How sorry I feel therefore for those perverted hearts
Die dir, mein Gott, so sehr zuwider sein;
that against you, my God, are so set
Ich zittre recht und fühle tausend Schmerzen,
I truly shudder and feel a thousand pangs
Wenn sie sich nur an Rach und Hass erfreun.
When they take delight only in vengeance and hatred.
Gerechter Gott, was magst du doch gedenken,
Most just God, what must you then think
Wenn sie allein mit rechten Satansränken
when with their truly satanic intrigues
Dein scharfes Strafgebot so frech verlacht.
They so insolently deride your strict commands about punishment..
Ach! ohne Zweifel hast du so gedacht:
Ah! without doubt you have thought:
Wie jammern mich doch die verkehrten Herzen!
How sorry I feel therefore for those perverted hearts!

   


4   
Recitative [Alto]

   
Violino I/II, Viola, Continuo

   
Wer sollte sich demnach
Who in these circumstances would
Wohl hier zu leben wünschen,
wish to live here at all
Wenn man nur Hass und Ungemach
when only hate and misfortune
Vor seine Liebe sieht?
Are seen in place of God's love?
Doch, weil ich auch den Feind
But since also my enemy
Wie meinen besten Freund
as if he were my best friend
Nach Gottes Vorschrift lieben soll,
should be loved by me according to God's commandment
So flieht
then there depart
Mein Herze Zorn und Groll
from my heart anger and resentment
Und wünscht allein bei Gott zu leben,
and my wish is to live for God alone
Der selbst die Liebe heißt.
Who is Love itself
Ach, eintrachtvoller Geist,
Ah, spirit filled with harmony,
Wenn wird er dir doch nur sein Himmelszion geben?
When will the promised land of heaven be given to you?

   


5   
Aria [Alto]

   
Organo obligato e Oboe d'amore, Violino I all' unisono, Violino II, Viola, Continuo

   
Mir ekelt mehr zu leben,
I feel revulsion to prolong my life,
Drum nimm mich, Jesu, hin!
And so take me away from here, Jesus!
Mir graut vor allen Sünden,
I am horrified by all the sins,
Laß mich dies Wohnhaus finden,
grant that I may find this place to live
Wo selbst ich ruhig bin.
Where I myself may be at peace.-

--

Printable version of this translation

English Translation by Francis Browne (October 2007)
Contributed by Francis Browne (October 2007)

[JaapT]

Some bawling, but no drawling it seems. So Taruskin should not be believed on his words.

As for the van Egmond/Bruggen account on BWV 82/56. The oboist is apparently Paul Dombrecht according to http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV56-D.htm.

[chasmaniac]

Does anyone know when the next instalment of the Kuijken series will appear? I'm starting to pine.

[zmic]

Any other fans of this set? Some of my all time favorite non-HIP Bach.

[asin]B000024M87[/asin]