The Bach Cantatas

[kishnevi]

very, very dangerous generalization...Tidy is essential for Bach's sacred music and cantatas...But I'll leave it here as I see that you judge it according to your personal taste, not to how it should be...

And of course,  in real life, that generalization is subject to much nuancification.   Messy in Bach means the laundry baskets have been put in the wrong place but the clothes remains neatly folded in the baskets, whereas in other composers that would still be tidy, and messy would require the clothes to be dumped out of the laundry basket and tossed all over the floor.

ETA: which shouldn't lead you to think that my laundry is tossed all over the floor.  I may be a messy male, but I'm not that messy!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

very, very dangerous generalization...Tidy is essential for Bach's sacred music and cantatas...But I'll leave it here as I see that you judge it according to your personal taste, not to how it should be...

"Tidy" = Suzuki and someone ought to loosen his jock strap...

[Edited to make sense]

[Sammy]

Thumbs up for Suzuki, Gardiner and Herreweghe.

Thumbs down for Koopman.

[kishnevi]

If "tidy" = Suzuki then someone ought to loosen his jock strap...

I'm puzzled because apparently what you mean by "tidy" is not what I mean.
For me, "tidy"  is well described by what you said about Suzuki here:

Coincidentally, I actually feel the same way you do about Suzuki - he seems terribly resolute in his approach so that not a single phrase passes by without being perfectly pressed and creased. I can see the similarities with Herreweghe but what separates the two for me is the wonderful warmth Herreweghe brings - the music becomes silky and almost aromatic.

To be fair I've yet to hear anything from Suzuki's later volumes which Herr Jens seems to feel have turned a corner of some sort. I'll definitely look into them.

More generally,  for me "tidy" is a shorthand term for a performance that emphasized technical execution over emotional content (emotional content probably being something along the lines of what you meant when you talked about the "warmth" you feel in Herreweghe's* performances).  Not of course that high quality technical execution is not necessary--but if I have to choose between a performance that's technically flawless but emotionally cold and a performance that's technically flawed but has a deep emotional content, I'll go for the latter unless the technical flaws are really really bad ones.

So would you mean explaining by what you mean by "tidy" and how it does or does not describe Suzuki's recordings?

And while I'm at it,  maybe Annie could answer the same question, to make sure we're not talking at cross purposes.

*And while we're at it,  I don't have the complete run of Herreweghe's Bach, but I have a good deal of it, and I like all I have.

[Wakefield]

David Hurwitz over at ClassicsToday is crazy about the Suites and Brandenburgs.

I need to listen to those Brandenburgs again. As far as I recall, three or four years ago I found them excellent, quite in the same way described by the infamous Hurwitz.

[Wakefield]

[...] I can see the similarities with Herreweghe but what separates the two for me is the wonderful warmth Herreweghe brings - the music becomes silky and almost aromatic.

A beautiful and very apt description of the impression that Herreweghe leaves.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'm puzzled because apparently what you mean by "tidy" is not what I mean.
For me, "tidy"  is well described by what you said about Suzuki here:

Sorry, I rushed that post and I should have left out "if" (and written "and" instead of "then". Or perhaps partaken in a quick lobotomy ). I meant it to mean Suzuki could help his cause by letting the reins loose a bit. So yes we're on the same page.

And speaking of Suzuki, I've read Herr Jens's entreaties on behalf of the more recent volumes and admittedly my interest is growing. We'll see...

*And while we're at it,  I don't have the complete run of Herreweghe's Bach, but I have a good deal of it, and I like all I have.

I have all but three discs of Herreweghe's cantata recordings and their quality always amazes me. It's perhaps - perhaps - my preferred Bach of all.

[Wakefield]

Thumbs up for Suzuki, Gardiner and Herreweghe.

Thumbs down for Koopman.

Exactly my own opinion, just excepting Koopman, who also wins thumbs up. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

A beautiful and very apt description of the impression that Herreweghe leaves.

Thank you, Sir Shumway.

[Opus106]

The photographic series from which the Gardiner covers is taken is available as a book; I've seen in Barnes and Noble in the art section. If anyone is interested,  I'll make a note of the photographer and title the next time I'm there (although of course I only need look at the CDs to find the photographer!)

Steve McCurry. One of the images used, the one with young, green-eyed Afghan girl, is iconic; it was featured in the cover National Geographic. About 10 years ago or so, he went back to find the same girl and managed to photograph her again.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text

[Octave]

Re: Suzuki-sensei:

I know nothing about the cantatas (have never heard one!!), but Suzuki's recordings of the orchestral works left me confused and wondering why they're so acclaimed. They're just so polished and moderate and even-keeled.

David Hurwitz over at ClassicsToday is crazy about the Suites and Brandenburgs.

I think I might have been guilty of buying that hype, initially.  I still liked them last time I listened to them, but not enough to holler, as I did at first.  It now seems fair to me to call them controlled if not subdued if not tidy. 
I had not heard Cafe Zimmermann yet!   
I wonder if I would feel this way about Suzuki's cantatas recordings now?  It has been three years since I've heard any of them.  I'd heard almost no cantatas recordings at all before then, and I didn't like recitative before that point.  What a difference a bit of immersion makes!

Thanks everyone for the perspective on Gardiner and others.  I am rather sympathetic to the advantages of "messiness"; my taste has confirmed this repeatedly [to itself], though each time it's a different experience.  I mean, Bill Laswell was right, Fela Kuti was a pretty rotten saxophonist, but holy cow he could play a saxophone.  Ditto the original recording of Terry Riley's IN C.  The list could go on and on.  (I guess the means is rather different in Bach.)

I had no trouble with the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cantatas series for this reason, perhaps.  I bet I would still love them!

I have all the Herreweghe stuff on HM and Virgin excepting his early, supposedly rawer recordings....the ST. MATT and I am not sure what else.  I want those but have been hoping for a cheaper reissue.  I do like the Herreweghe very much.

[The new erato]

I had no trouble with the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cantatas series for this reason, perhaps.  I bet I would still love them!

As do I, messiness or not. They have a sense of joy of discovery and of earnestness of feeling that overrides all aspects of messiness, unsecure boy trebles etc, and I feel they dig deeper to the core of Bachs intentions (what ever they were, but this is my interpretation) than any later versions, however perfect. For the same reason I love 60ies Dylan.

[milk]

I'm curious what people think of the Kuijken series. This is what got me into the cantatas and I haven't branched out yet. I love how prominent the instrumental parts are in Kuijken and some other OVPP interpretations. It's the immediacy of it that's hooked me. It took me a while to get into the cantatas and the Suzuki recordings didn't help when I started. I think they are too "big" for my current taste (always changing). I'm sure to branch out at some point in the future though. I've made a playlist of favorites from Kuijken, Rifken, Junghänel and Ricercar that includes 11, 12, 13, 18, 34, 36, 52, 61, 62, 73, 81, 82, 106, 116, 129, 131, 140, 180, and 182. I also love Kuijken's Easter Oratorio. I notice these recordings haven't come up in the recent posts but I understand the comments were of complete series.

[jlaurson]

I meant it to mean Suzuki could help his cause by letting the reins loose a bit. So yes we're on the same page.

And speaking of Suzuki, I've read Jens's entreaties on behalf of the more recent volumes and admittedly my interest is growing. We'll see...

Hey, this is one of the finer, less narrow GMG 'conversations' we've enjoyed here for a while. Neato.

As per DD's point: I'm not sure that if tidiness and neatness (which I seem to define similarly as you do) is your problem with Suzuki, that it's him loosening the reins that has endeared me more to his more recent efforts. Rather I find that he's perfected his approach. As tidy as ever, if not more, he's no longer glib or rushed... something of a bloom, I find, has developed... and---for all the insistent meticulousness, the cantatas have more room to breathe. But "letting his hair down" he isn't, exactly.

I'm curious what people think of the Kuijken series. This is what got me into the cantatas and I haven't branched out yet. I love how prominent the instrumental parts are in Kuijken and some other OVPP interpretations. It's the immediacy of it that's hooked me....I notice these recordings haven't come up in the recent posts but I understand the comments were of complete series.

Whether he's right or wrong, musicologically, the results are terrific. Tight and merciless and wow-pow, left-right in your face kind of Bach. (If one is into that sort of thing.) Perhaps what you call by immediacy. :-)

Miscellany:

Kuijken Cantatas v.11: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-7.html
"But the proof is in the musical pudding, and (pretty exclusively) under Kuijken's hands that pudding sounds amazing."
Kuijken Cantatas v.8: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2008-almost-list.html
"But who cares when the results of overzealous historicism get us results like Kuijken's. Nothing stiff or academic or skimpy about this series..."

Motet excerpts: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/dip-your-ears-no-133-bach-motets.html

BACH, "KOMM, JESU, KOMM" BWV 229 (EXCERPT),
SIGISWALD KUIJKEN, LA PETITE BANDE, ACCENT 10087

BACH, "FÜRCHTE DICH NICHT, ICH BIN BEI DIR" BWV 228 (EXCERPT),
JOHN ELIOT GARDINER, MONTEVERDI CHOIR, SDG 716

BACH, "LOBET DEN HERRN, ALLE HEIDEN" BWV 230 (EXCERPT),
PETER DIJKSTRA, NEDERLANDS KAMERKOOR, CHANNEL SACD 27108

BACH, "DER GEIST HILFT UNSRER SCHWACHHEIT AUF" BWV 226 (EXCERPT),
PHILIPPE HERREWEGHE, COLLEGIUM VOCALE, HARMONIA MUNDI 901231

BACH, "JESU, MEINE FREUDE" BWV 227 (EXCERPT),
JOHANNES HIEMETSBERGER, CHORUS SINE NOMINE, GRAMOLA 98875

BACH, "SINGET DEM HERRN EIN NEUES LIED" BWV 225 (EXCERPT)
MASAAKI SUZUKI, BACH COLLEGIUM JAPAN, BIS SACD 1841

Kuijken Brandenburgs III (Accent): http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html
"They are the most chamber-music like of Kuijken's Brandenburgs yet, with that crisp, uncompromising attack that makes his one-year cantata cycle on the same label such a thrilling proposition."

[milk]

Whether he's right or wrong, musicologically, the results are terrific. Tight and merciless and wow-pow, left-right in your face kind of Bach. (If one is into that sort of thing.) Perhaps what you call by immediacy. :-)

[/quote]
Yes, that's it. One of the reasons I come here is to have someone put into words what I cannot. I haven't heard everything by a long shot, but I haven't heard anything that sounds quite like Kuijken in the cantatas. Maybe some day I'll get more interested in grandeur.

[Brian]

I had not heard Cafe Zimmermann yet!   

I'm just continually amazed by how awesome Cafe Zimmermann is!

I mean, Bill Laswell was right, Fela Kuti was a pretty rotten saxophonist, but holy cow he could play a saxophone.

Perhaps an even better example: if you care about wrong notes, don't listen to Miles Davis. But if you care about music...

[Karl Henning]

As do I, messiness or not. They have a sense of joy of discovery and of earnestness of feeling that overrides all aspects of messiness, unsecure boy trebles etc, [....]

Agreed.  A part of me makes note when one of the singers is to any degree struggling, but I have never yet found it 'fatal' to the enterprise.

[The new erato]

Agreed.  A part of me makes note when one of the singers is to any degree struggling, but I have never yet found it 'fatal' to the enterprise.

After all, "struggling" would be a very central aspect to Bach's life and his beliefs.

[Karl Henning]

Still, an organist struggling to manage notes would not be in Bach's service 

[prémont]

Or the impatient.

Not quite true. If you have to wait for twenty years, you do not even know if you live that long.