The Bach Cantatas

[prémont]

Still, an organist struggling to manage notes would not be in Bach's service 

But the strange thing is, that nor may an organist (or any musician for that matter) playing too fluent always be in Bach´s service.

[prémont]

It's not usually highlighted enough, but those four anniversary boxes on Bis are exceptionally well done because include the complete booklets of the original releases. And when I say complete booklets, I'm saying ten separate booklet into every box, which sadly it's not the usual way as the liner notes are provided in re-releases.

Or the other way round: In too many rereleases the important liner notes and information about the recording and the musicians are painfully absent.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Hey, this is one of the finer, less narrow GMG 'conversations' we've enjoyed here for a while. Neato.

Indeed, quite fun. And no flaming!...how'd that happen? 0:)

I notice my "Herr" went absent when you quoted my post. I guess you prefer it unaccompanied. I can oblige. Just didn't want to presume...

As per DD's point: I'm not sure that if tidiness and neatness (which I seem to define similarly as you do) is your problem with Suzuki, that it's him loosening the reins that has endeared me more to his more recent efforts. Rather I find that he's perfected his approach. As tidy as ever, if not more, he's no longer glib or rushed... something of a bloom, I find, has developed... and---for all the insistent meticulousness, the cantatas have more room to breathe. But "letting his hair down" he isn't, exactly.

Hmm...still, more breathing room sounds encouraging. And Christmas is coming...

Motet excerpts: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/dip-your-ears-no-133-bach-motets.html

Thanks for posting that link. Very much enjoyed the samples. A pleasant surprise was the Channel sample. But overall, Herreweghe and *gulp* Gardiner were my two faves. Uh, oh.....

[knight66]

After all, "struggling" would be a very central aspect to Bach's life and his beliefs.

I think that is an interesting point. But in Bach I agree with Karl. The struggles should come through expression not the detection of effort. Where I do feel it is intergal is in the Beethoven Missa Solemnis where the writing puts real pressures on the choir and if the choir makes it sound too easy then a lot of the power of the piece is lost.

Mike

[Octave]

To wit, I'm going to have a T-shirt made of Brian's Gritty Graph.

Wait!  I just solved the GMG funding problem!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Great moments in Bach's cantatas: they're everywhere. Herculean task to single out just one.

But without question I've just come across what I consider my favorite moment in Bach's cantatas, and perhaps in all Bach.

It all starts innocently enough with the Coin disc below. Coin's three discs of cantatas (nine cantatas total) are a quick roundup of all the cantatas in the canon which contain the rare violoncello piccolo, a diminutive five stringed cello with an extended upper register (kinda like "cello light" and on the warmer side).

Of course, discerning the instrument's value in the overall orchestral mix isn't easy as it's in competition with all the other instruments, though I'm inclined to say there is indeed a bit of extra "cushiness" during the choral movements.

But it isn't the violoncello piccolo per se that accounts for my "bang, this is it!" moment in the cantatas. It plays a significant part though and no doubt without it my epiphany wouldn't be as complete.

What all the fuss is about is actually the solo soprano aria Ach, bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ from BWV 6 in which the violoncello piccolo is singled out as the continuo instrument. Here the instrument's value is evident. However, it is only one of two parts to this sublime creation.

After the instrumental introduction out comes the real star, the singer. Then the light show begins. Such otherworldliness. Hard not to just stand back and admire what Bach has created.

Of course the efforts of the continuo can't be downplayed and I'm tempted to say it's the combination of instrumentalist and singer which contributes to the success of this aria. So be it! But overall I'm absolutely smitten by the singing in this aria. 




[asin]B0014GIZC4[/asin]

[Sammy]

Great moments in Bach's cantatas: they're everywhere. Herculean task to single out just one.

But without question I've just come across what I consider my favorite moment in Bach's cantatas, and perhaps in all Bach.

It all starts innocently enough with the Coin disc below. Coin's three discs of cantatas (nine cantatas total) are a quick roundup of all the cantatas in the canon which contain the rare violoncello piccolo, a diminutive five stringed cello with an extended upper register (kinda like "cello light" and on the warmer side).

Of course, discerning the instrument's value in the overall orchestral mix isn't easy as it's in competition with all the other instruments, though I'm inclined to say there is indeed a bit of extra "cushiness" during the choral movements.

But it isn't the violoncello piccolo per se that accounts for my "bang, this is it!" moment in the cantatas. It plays a significant part though and no doubt without it my epiphany wouldn't be as complete.

What all the fuss is about is actually the solo soprano aria Ach, bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ from BWV 6 in which the violoncello piccolo is singled out as the continuo instrument. Here the instrument's value is evident. However, it is only one of two parts to this sublime creation.

After the instrumental introduction out comes the real star, the singer. Then the light show begins. Such otherworldliness. Hard not to just stand back and admire what Bach has created.

Of course the efforts of the continuo can't be downplayed and I'm tempted to say it's the combination of instrumentalist and singer which contributes to the success of this aria. So be it! But overall I'm absolutely smitten by the singing in this aria. 




[asin]B0014GIZC4[/asin]

How would you feel about a female chorus replacing a solo soprano?  That's what Gardiner gives us in his series on SDG.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

How would you feel about a female chorus replacing a solo soprano?  That's what Gardiner gives us in his series on SDG.

Interesting concept. I have to say it sounds somewhat antithetical to me knowing the movement as I do only in the solo garb. But that's of course without the benefit of knowing Gardiner's choral version.

I tried sampling it on Amazon but I couldn't determine much. It does seem to me to lack the haunting intimacy of the Coin version, which engages me from the start. I like being drawn in like that as opposed to feeling at arm's length from a performance, no matter how well intended and professional. Though I admit I'm slowly warming to Gardiner's "high-splash" approach to Bach's sacred works so if I must be at an arm's length I can at least appreciate the laser show!

Have you heard the solo version, Sammy?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Just gave a fresh listen to my sole Suzuki disc (vol. 6). I must say I had an enjoyable time with it this time around. Suzuki still ranks the highest as far as being the most "controlled" but it certainly isn't without a pulse.

The experience inspired me to order two more volumes (35 & 39). Keeping me fingers crossed...

[milk]

Great moments in Bach's cantatas: they're everywhere. Herculean task to single out just one.

But without question I've just come across what I consider my favorite moment in Bach's cantatas, and perhaps in all Bach.

It all starts innocently enough with the Coin disc below. Coin's three discs of cantatas (nine cantatas total) are a quick roundup of all the cantatas in the canon which contain the rare violoncello piccolo, a diminutive five stringed cello with an extended upper register (kinda like "cello light" and on the warmer side).

Of course, discerning the instrument's value in the overall orchestral mix isn't easy as it's in competition with all the other instruments, though I'm inclined to say there is indeed a bit of extra "cushiness" during the choral movements.

But it isn't the violoncello piccolo per se that accounts for my "bang, this is it!" moment in the cantatas. It plays a significant part though and no doubt without it my epiphany wouldn't be as complete.

What all the fuss is about is actually the solo soprano aria Ach, bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ from BWV 6 in which the violoncello piccolo is singled out as the continuo instrument. Here the instrument's value is evident. However, it is only one of two parts to this sublime creation.

After the instrumental introduction out comes the real star, the singer. Then the light show begins. Such otherworldliness. Hard not to just stand back and admire what Bach has created.

Of course the efforts of the continuo can't be downplayed and I'm tempted to say it's the combination of instrumentalist and singer which contributes to the success of this aria. So be it! But overall I'm absolutely smitten by the singing in this aria. 




[asin]B0014GIZC4[/asin]

Thanks for this. I went for my beloved Kuijken's version for this morning's bike to work. I had a great time!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Thanks for this. I went for my beloved Kuijken's version for this morning's bike to work. I had a great time!

Thanks back at ya, milk. Glad you enjoyed it.

[Sammy]

Interesting concept. I have to say it sounds somewhat antithetical to me knowing the movement as I do only in the solo garb. But that's of course without the benefit of knowing Gardiner's choral version.

I tried sampling it on Amazon but I couldn't determine much. It does seem to me to lack the haunting intimacy of the Coin version, which engages me from the start. I like being drawn in like that as opposed to feeling at arm's length from a performance, no matter how well intended and professional. Though I admit I'm slowly warming to Gardiner's "high-splash" approach to Bach's sacred works so if I must be at an arm's length I can at least appreciate the laser show!

Have you heard the solo version, Sammy?

Many times.  I've had the Coin version for about 10 years and enjoy it greatly.  However, my favorite choice for that piece is from Harnoncourt who uses a boy soprano.

[Mandryka]

It's so strange how the  cello part seems (to me) to have nothing to do with the voice part in the Harnoncourt, like they're independent of each other. It's like the boy's in one room singing a song, and the cellist's in another, playing his music, we can hear both but they can't hear each other.  In Coin the cello and voice seem more integrated. I don't know of others will share this impression, I've just listened pretty casually you know, just aftet DD posted here, I don't think I'd ever played the cantata before.

[knight66]

If you can be bothered, I write about the interplay between voice and obligato in my review of the DVD Bach St Matthew conducted by Rattle. The two need to be communing and should not give the impression of performing in isolation to one another.

Mike

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Many times.  I've had the Coin version for about 10 years and enjoy it greatly.  However, my favorite choice for that piece is from Harnoncourt who uses a boy soprano.

So why does Gardiner use a female chorus, here? Does he mention his reasoning? The notes to the Coin disc make no mention of an alternate version.

[Mandryka]

If you can be bothered, I write about the interplay between voice and obligato in my review of the DVD Bach St Matthew conducted by Rattle. The two need to be communing and should not give the impression of performing in isolation to one another.

Mike

Of course I can be bothered! Where is your review of the Matthew Passion?

I know it sounds crazy, but I wonder if  Harnoncourt has done  in deliberately, to increase the amount of disorientation that the listener feels. The canata seems to be partly about the consequences of being out of sync with God's ideas, maybe that's got something to do with it. I don't know.

[knight66]

Of course I can be bothered! Where is your review of the Matthew Passion?

I know it sounds crazy, but I wonder if  Harnoncourt has done  in deliberately, to increase the amount of disorientation that the listener feels. The canata seems to be partly about the consequences of being out of sync with God's ideas, maybe that's got something to do with it. I don't know.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4877.msg727231/topicseen.html#msg727231

Here is the link, only a sentence or so on it, but it loomed large in my mind.

Mike

[kishnevi]

So why does Gardiner use a female chorus, here? Does he mention his reasoning? The notes to the Coin disc make no mention of an alternate version.

No specific reference in the liner notes, but there are other cantatas in which one section of the chorus sings a number instead of a hypothetical soloist.  I'd have to go digging through all them all, however, to see if he explains it or if there's any common thread to them.  And it might have been a simple logistical matter involving readiness/lack of availability of a suitable soloist.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

No specific reference in the liner notes, but there are other cantatas in which one section of the chorus sings a number instead of a hypothetical soloist.  I'd have to go digging through all them all, however, to see if he explains it or if there's any common thread to them.  And it might have been a simple logistical matter involving readiness/lack of availability of a suitable soloist.

Thanks, JS. But just to be clear, are you saying that there are other instances of this type of thing in Gardiner's pilgrimage? If so, that seems just plain odd. An aria is an aria after all (or some such solo movement). 

If it's a matter of logistics that almost makes it even MORE odd. Why not strike the work from the date and replay it later? Better that than distort it.   

[Sammy]

Thanks, JS. But just to be clear, are you saying that there are other instances of this type of thing in Gardiner's pilgrimage? If so, that seems just plain odd. An aria is an aria after all (or some such solo movement).   

I'm not aware of any instance where Gardiner treats a dedicated "aria" with a chorus.  The movement being discussed is a chorale; I haven't ever seen any track listing that refers to it as an aria.