The Bach Cantatas

[kishnevi]

Thanks, JS. But just to be clear, are you saying that there are other instances of this type of thing in Gardiner's pilgrimage? If so, that seems just plain odd. An aria is an aria after all (or some such solo movement). 

I'd have to delve into it more deeply. It's possible that there are musicological grounds for the practice, but my knowlege of the cantatas in particular is rather low.

If it's a matter of logistics that almost makes it even MORE odd. Why not strike the work from the date and replay it later? Better that than distort it.   

That was not allowed by Gardiner's scheme, which was to record all the cantatas for a given liturgical date in one concert, that concert taking place on or very close to the liturgical date in 2000 (except for some of the cantatas written for end of the post-Trinity Sunday season, which were scattered on other Sundays because the post-Trinity season did not have enough Sundays in 2000 to fit them all).  Thus the cantatas for Easter Sunday, Easter Monday (one of which was BWV 6) and Easter Tuesday were all recorded in live performances over the three day period of April 23-25 2000, and issued together in one double CD volume.
So, to stick to his original scheme,  re-plays were not possible.  The only exception as the Ascension Day cantatas, which he re-recorded last year and issued this year--the original concert was marred by too much outside noise (airplanes, IIRC).

I'm not aware of any instance where Gardiner treats a dedicated "aria" with a chorus.  The movement being discussed is a chorale; I haven't ever seen any track listing that refers to it as an aria.

Definite musicalogical point there;  but that sort of turns the question inside out:  why did Harnoncourt et al.  give it to a soloist instead of doing what Gardiner did?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'm not aware of any instance where Gardiner treats a dedicated "aria" with a chorus.  The movement being discussed is a chorale; I haven't ever seen any track listing that refers to it as an aria.

But this particular chorale has a designation of solo, though (apologies for the misattribution of aria). And no other chorale I have with a particular designation strays from its designation (solo or duet). Is there flexibility despite a chorale's designation? Allowances? That sort of thing?   

And based on my limited knowledge what worried me (based on what Jeffrey wrote) was that perhaps Gardiner might've gone a little overboard elsewhere. Just checking. 

Anything you can contribute would be appreciated. I am interested, but unknowledgeable. And anyway, you brought it up.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'd have to delve into it more deeply. It's possible that there are musicological grounds for the practice, but my knowlege of the cantatas in particular is rather low.That was not allowed by Gardiner's scheme, which was to record all the cantatas for a given liturgical date in one concert, that concert taking place on or very close to the liturgical date in 2000 (except for some of the cantatas written for end of the post-Trinity Sunday season, which were scattered on other Sundays because the post-Trinity season did not have enough Sundays in 2000 to fit them all).  Thus the cantatas for Easter Sunday, Easter Monday (one of which was BWV 6) and Easter Tuesday were all recorded in live performances over the three day period of April 23-25 2000, and issued together in one double CD volume.
So, to stick to his original scheme,  re-plays were not possible.  The only exception as the Ascension Day cantatas, which he re-recorded last year and issued this year--the original concert was marred by too much outside noise (airplanes, IIRC).

Ah, thanks Jeffrey. Makes sense.

Definite musicalogical point there;  but that sort of turns the question inside out:  why did Harnoncourt et al.  give it to a soloist instead of doing what Gardiner did?

Yes...

[Parsifal]

My understanding is that they find a manuscript copy with a staff labeled "tenor" (or whatever) with no indication of whether it is a single voice or a chorus, and they have to guess.  I suppose it is possible that the designation "solo" doesn't appear in the manuscript, even though it appear in the printed score.  My first recording of BWV140 (Richter) had a solo tenor (Peter Schrier)  singing famous chorale in the center of the cantata, and my second, Harnoncourt, had a tenor chorus.  Each was sure they had gotten it right.

For what it's worth, Rilling also uses a (female) solo soprano in the BWV6 chorals (as opposed to Harnoncourt's boy soprano).

[Dancing Divertimentian]

My understanding is that they find a manuscript copy with a staff labeled "tenor" (or whatever) with no indication of whether it is a single voice or a chorus, and they have to guess.  I suppose it is possible that the designation "solo" doesn't appear in the manuscript, even though it appear in the printed score.  My first recording of BWV140 (Richter) had a solo tenor (Peter Schrier)  singing famous chorale in the center of the cantata, and my second, Harnoncourt, had a tenor chorus.  Each was sure they had gotten it right.

For what it's worth, Rilling also uses a (female) solo soprano in the BWV6 chorals (as opposed to Harnoncourt's boy soprano).

Thanks, Scarpia.

[Parsifal]

Thanks, Scarpia.

I listened to the BVW 6 soprano chorale you mentioned, and it was lovely, especially Harnoncourts.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I listened to the BVW 6 soprano chorale you mentioned, and it was lovely, especially Harnoncourts.

Thanks, yes it's quite a beauty. I'll have to give that Harnoncourt a listen sometime. Sounds interesting.

And in a hard-to-believe twist, by pure chance I picked up a May/June 2008 copy of Fanfare to take with me while at the doctor this morning and what should I find but a review of this very cantata (BWV 6) by resident Bach knowledge-man (though I gather something of an "expert") George Chien. It was Suzuki's version he was reviewing (pages 71 & 72).

Chien gives a basic layout of the work, with the particular movement in question described as (to quote) "a chorale for solo soprano with obbligato violoncello piccolo".

However, a few sentences later he apparently makes the same slip as I had and calls this movement one of "three fine arias". But is this an actual slip or does the terminology/phraseology get a little interchangeable in these instances?

Anyway, dunno, just thinking out loud...

[Parsifal]

Thanks, yes it's quite a beauty. I'll have to give that Harnoncourt a listen sometime. Sounds interesting.

And in a hard-to-believe twist, by pure chance I picked up a May/June 2008 copy of Fanfare to take with me while at the doctor this morning and what should I find but a review of this very cantata (BWV 6) by resident Bach knowledge-man (though I gather something of an "expert") George Chien. It was Suzuki's version he was reviewing (pages 71 & 72).

Chien gives a basic layout of the work, with the particular movement in question described as (to quote) "a chorale for solo soprano with obbligato violoncello piccolo".

However, a few sentences later he apparently makes the same slip as I had and calls this movement one of "three fine arias". But is this an actual slip or does the terminology/phraseology get a little interchangeable in these instances?

Anyway, dunno, just thinking out loud...

Well, the soprano is singing a chorale melody, so I don't think you can call it an aria.  I though the accepted terminology is "choral fantasia."

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Well, the soprano is singing a chorale melody, so I don't think you can call it an aria.

True. It's a setting of a hymn.

I though the accepted terminology is "choral fantasia."

I wish I could say. I've seen something along the lines of "chorale as aria" for an ornamented organ chorale. Other than that...

[Parsifal]

True. It's a setting of a hymn.

I wish I could say. I've seen something along the lines of "chorale as aria" for an ornamented organ chorale. Other than that...

I suppose the term chorale prelude is normally applied to a typical cantata first movement, where one voice of the chorus has the chorale melody and the other voices engage in free counterpoint.  The structure of the sporano piece from BWV6 is almost identical to the much more famous Zion hört die Wächter singen from BWV140, which was later transformed into a chorale prelude for organ.   The piece in BWV6 is like a sung version of a chorale prelude (rather than a harmonized version or the chorale, such as normally appears at the end).

One thing that occurs to me, some recent scholarship claims that in Bach's time the "chorus" was one-to-a-part, so writing "solo" on the vocal part in a movement like the soprano chorale movement of BWV might have been superfluous for Bach.

[kishnevi]

Taking a look at the online score,  this movement is scored for a highly ornamented cello piccolo, continuo, and a soprano line that is mostly half notes with some quarter notes thrown in.  Don't see anything in the way of eighth notes or shorter in the vocal line.  It's obviously not a aria, in contrast to the preceding movement (alto, with obbligato oboe di caccia and continuo) and the movement afterwards (bass recitative and tenor aria).  The vocal line is even simpler and plainer than the opening chorale/chorus.   It definitely looks like choral writing meant to contrast with the surrounding solos.

[Parsifal]

Taking a look at the online score,  this movement is scored for a highly ornamented cello piccolo, continuo, and a soprano line that is mostly half notes with some quarter notes thrown in.  Don't see anything in the way of eighth notes or shorter in the vocal line.  It's obviously not a aria, in contrast to the preceding movement (alto, with obbligato oboe di caccia and continuo) and the movement afterwards (bass recitative and tenor aria).  The vocal line is even simpler and plainer than the opening chorale/chorus.   It definitely looks like choral writing meant to contrast with the surrounding solos.

No need to infer that it is a chorale, it is marked chorale in the score and was later transcribed by Bach as a Chorale Prelude (BWV649)

[Dancing Divertimentian]

One thing that occurs to me, some recent scholarship claims that in Bach's time the "chorus" was one-to-a-part, so writing "solo" on the vocal part in a movement like the soprano chorale movement of BWV might have been superfluous for Bach.

I thought of that, too. I can almost see Joshua Rifkin (and the "Rifkinites") pelting Gardiner with tomatoes for his conceited blasphemy!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Taking a look at the online score,  this movement is scored for a highly ornamented cello piccolo, continuo, and a soprano line that is mostly half notes with some quarter notes thrown in.  Don't see anything in the way of eighth notes or shorter in the vocal line.  It's obviously not a aria, in contrast to the preceding movement (alto, with obbligato oboe di caccia and continuo) and the movement afterwards (bass recitative and tenor aria).  The vocal line is even simpler and plainer than the opening chorale/chorus.

Interesting.

It definitely looks like choral writing meant to contrast with the surrounding solos.

Then Gardiner may be on to something. Too bad he doesn't spell it out in his CD booklet.

He does seem to be the odd man out, though.

[kishnevi]

No need to infer that it is a chorale, it is marked chorale in the score and was later transcribed by Bach as a Chorale Prelude (BWV649)

I wrote "choral" meaning "sung by member(s) of the chorus"="not a soloist like the alto in the preceding aria or the tenor in the succeeding aria".

Sorry for not being clearer.

[Octave]

J.S. Bach: ADVENT AND CHRISTMAS CANTATAS [Karl Richter] (Archiv/Decca/Universal, 4cd)
Released 7 Oct 13

[jlaurson]

J.S. Bach: ADVENT AND CHRISTMAS CANTATAS [Karl Richter] (Archiv/Decca/Universal, 4cd)
Released 7 Oct 13

Hallelujah!

OFP Bach Cantatas at their finest!

[Octave]

Hallelujah!

OFP Bach Cantatas at their finest!

What is 'OFP'?  I am drawing a blank.  I even googled it!

Too bad they didn't reissue the Richter series whole-hog, though fear of quarterly market saturation is fully justified.  FWIW there is no overlap between the new 4cd and this 'Famous Cantatas' collection, the only one I've purchased in legal hardcopy:

[asin]B000024ZAZ[/asin]

I don't know why Richter's Bach cantatas appeal to me so much.  Richter's Bach in general.  I have not returned to his cantatas in many months, so reacquaintance should be interesting.  I did listen to his Bach organ recordings just recently, and the same impression dropped on me like a boulder from the sky in open desert.  This is inelegant but captures the impression, rather than the sound of it.

[jlaurson]

What is 'OFP'?  I am drawing a blank.  I even googled it!

Too bad they didn't reissue the Richter series whole-hog...

I'm assuming they're spacing it out ...not unlike they did in the original issue, which were boxed in five sets, sorted seasonally.

OFP is Old Fashioned Performance. :-)

[Parsifal]

I don't know why Richter's Bach cantatas appeal to me so much.  Richter's Bach in general.  I have not returned to his cantatas in many months, so reacquaintance should be interesting.  I did listen to his Bach organ recordings just recently, and the same impression dropped on me like a boulder from the sky in open desert.  This is inelegant but captures the impression, rather than the sound of it.

You mean his DG organ recordings.  There is also a recording made for Decca in Geneva which is amazing.  It was on the Decca "Classic Sound" series, I think.