The Bach Cantatas

[Parsifal]

I do understand the point being made about the Rilling/Auger performance. But I still turn to it when I hear that music in my head. Probably brainwashed.

I have not listened to the aria in questions (except a quick listen to part of the youtube), but whenever Auger sings it is a miracle.  But she has to work within the constraints that Rilling's tempo creates, and she would presumably have done something very different if she had encountered Harnoncourt's tempo.

[Sammy]

I don't agree Mike.

Just think about what we're dealing with here, this is disturbing music, very, with not an iota of solace

How tremble and waver
the sinners' thoughts
while they bring accusations against each other
and on the other hand dare to make excuses for themselves.
In this way a troubled conscience
is torn apart through its own torments.

To my mind Rilling with Auger are far too comforting.

I do find Rilling's tempo too slow, but "slow" doesn't have to be "comforting".  Also, I don't consider Auger comforting in this aria at all; there's plenty of "misery" in her voice.  I'm surprised you don't hear it.  Actually, her misery equals that of Barbara Schlick for Herreweghe, and Schlick is the queen of Bach's misery.

If there is such a thing as the right tempo for the aria, my preferred tempo comes out to about 6 minutes in length.  Koopman and Suzuki are on target.

[Sammy]

All of the emphasis on the voice --- Auger vs a chorister --- is ignoring the real difference between the performance.  Harnoncourt found the right tempo, which is much faster than Rillings and guides the vocalist to a more declamatory vocal style.  Rilling's much slower tempo leads to a more contemplative vocal style.  If you had given Auger to Harnoncourt he would have produced the same effect with her as he did with the chorister, I think.

Again, I have to object to the premise that the tempo greatly affects the projected mood of the soprano voice.

[Sammy]

I do understand the point being made about the Rilling/Auger performance. But I still turn to it when I hear that music in my head. Probably brainwashed.

Mike

No, you just have good taste.

[Sammy]

I have not listened to the aria in questions (except a quick listen to part of the youtube), but whenever Auger sings it is a miracle.  But she has to work within the constraints that Rilling's tempo creates, and she would presumably have done something very different if she had encountered Harnoncourt's tempo.

Well, her singing would have to be quicker.  Beyond that, I think it's speculation.

[knight66]

OK, I will open up here and try to articulate something about the aria and the performance. Bach often sets words that are far from comforting. They face doubt, fear and pain flat on.

The words on occasion say one thing, but the setting can take you down a different road. In this instance, Rilling allows the underlying accompaniment to chug, he does not smooth it out. There is a tension there in the relentless undertow. The obbligato is is not played dreamily, it has muscle, but the setting of the words is undeniably beautiful. Now Auger certainly expresses turbulence, this is not a becalmed take on disturbing words. There is tension there quite clearly to my ears. But she expresses this within the deployment of an exceptional technique and beautiful voice. She pushes through some of the long melismatic phrases, to my ears articulating stress without destroying the great arching lines of the melody. She is not at all passive. To me, she finds the pain and presents it within a context of beauty. I don't feel that a less pleasant voice brings more truth to the text.

There is a beauty in pain, in suffering.....at least in art. The melody here is so sinuous and flat out beautiful that I feel all concerned do mine it for its ambiguity and hold those tensions in balance. I am going to stand by my choice, without suggesting it is the only way to interpret this piece. It moves me a great deal, I don't think it is remotely close to vocalise.

Finally, this is a special singer to me. I attended a number of her performances and was in choir for quite a handful, several times being only about eight feet from her and watching and listening to this glorious voice and her superb professionalism. So, I am biased.

Mike

[DavidW]

I think I'll have to pop in this recording myself.  bwv 105 right?  I'm on it!

[knight66]

I think I'll have to pop in this recording myself.  bwv 105 right?  I'm on it!

Yep, that's it. And you know me of old with my obsession for specific voices for vessels channelling Bach's music.

Mike

[Dancing Divertimentian]

OK, I will open up here and try to articulate something about the aria and the performance. Bach often sets words that are far from comforting. They face doubt, fear and pain flat on.

The words on occasion say one thing, but the setting can take you down a different road. In this instance, Rilling allows the underlying accompaniment to chug, he does not smooth it out. There is a tension there in the relentless undertow. The obbligato is is not played dreamily, it has muscle, but the setting of the words is undeniably beautiful. Now Auger certainly expresses turbulence, this is not a becalmed take on disturbing words. There is tension there quite clearly to my ears. But she expresses this within the deployment of an exceptional technique and beautiful voice. She pushes through some of the long melismatic phrases, to my ears articulating stress without destroying the great arching lines of the melody. She is not at all passive. To me, she finds the pain and presents it within a context of beauty. I don't feel that a less pleasant voice brings more truth to the text.

There is a beauty in pain, in suffering.....at least in art. The melody here is so sinuous and flat out beautiful that I feel all concerned do mine it for its ambiguity and hold those tensions in balance. I am going to stand by my choice, without suggesting it is the only way to interpret this piece. It moves me a great deal, I don't think it is remotely close to vocalise.

Finally, this is a special singer to me. I attended a number of her performances and was in choir for quite a handful, several times being only about eight feet from her and watching and listening to this glorious voice and her superb professionalism. So, I am biased.

Mike

Thanks for sharing that. Enjoyable read.

I suppose it would've helped if I had mentioned that overall I do enjoy Auger's singing for Rilling. I have several discs' worth from this cycle and for me one highlight is Auger's rendition of the famous Hört, ihr Völker aria from bwv 76.

She certainly gets the jubilance just right, here!

[kishnevi]

DD et al, I am loving this revisitation of key moments.  It's making me reach compulsively for the examples I have at hand.

Is that (Auger) with Rilling/Hanssler/Vol. ~33, Mike?  The paper booklets in that stand-alone set don't mention personnel, and I can't access the ROM for the moment.

.


The answer is yes. ( for convenience sake,  I've copied all the PDFs for that set onto my hard drive.)

[Marc]

All of the emphasis on the voice --- Auger vs a chorister --- is ignoring the real difference between the performance.  Harnoncourt found the right tempo, which is much faster than Rillings and guides the vocalist to a more declamatory vocal style.  Rilling's much slower tempo leads to a more contemplative vocal style.  If you had given Auger to Harnoncourt he would have produced the same effect with her as he did with the chorister, I think.

Yes, this very sweet and lyrical approach, which one hears quite often in this aria, has always seemed wrong to me. And yes, maybe Harnoncourt would have convinced Augér to sing it completely different. But it would have cost him more time, I think. A boy chorister might be easier to convince.

[Octave]

A boy chorister might be easier to convince.

I am reminded of Taruskin's quoting John Butt re: Harnoncourt's boy soloists: "No special opinions about pitch and tempo."

[DavidW]

I wish the booklets listed the soloists!  It must be on the cd rom.  Anyway I listened to that recording last night (bwv 105 Auger) and it is phenomenal with well judged tempos.  It sounds a tad bit slow in certain places compared to a period style performance, but that doesn't make the performance flawed.  The singing was heartfelt, the music was dark.  I have not heard the Harnoncourt recording but imo a boy singing sounds inappropriate to me.

[Parsifal]

I also listened to BWV 105 yesterday, in Rilling's recording.  The thing that made the biggest impression on me was probably the first movement.  The orchestral prelude was superb, and the way Bach brought in solo singers, then the full chorus was very effective (I assume that was Bach's direction and not a liberty of Rilling).  The soprano aria was also a very moving piece.  The opening, with the tremolo string motif was striking and the oboe solo was very vividly expressive.   I found myself more captivated by the oboe than the soprano voice.  Another nice thing about this cantata is that it does not dwell on a single mood, as some cantatas do, although the jubilant tenor aria struck me as less inspired than the soprano aria.  I also liked the fact that the tremolo motif from the soprano aria returned in a different context in the closing chorale.

I guess in listening I lost track of the goal, of listening to Auger.

[Mandryka]

I do find Rilling's tempo too slow, but "slow" doesn't have to be "comforting".  Also, I don't consider Auger comforting in this aria at all; there's plenty of "misery" in her voice.  I'm surprised you don't hear it.  Actually, her misery equals that of Barbara Schlick for Herreweghe, and Schlick is the queen of Bach's misery.

If there is such a thing as the right tempo for the aria, my preferred tempo comes out to about 6 minutes in length.  Koopman and Suzuki are on target.

If I suggested that there isn't misery in Auger/Rilling then I didn't mean to, sorry. What I think is that their vision is one of consolation. It's as if I'm crying, and I go to someone who's also crying, and we hug each other. Or if not crying substitute some other negative emotion.

Just imagine going to Harnoncourt and his boy for nice warm consoling hug. No chance, his vision has no warmth in it.

Compare the way Harnoncourt plays the closing instrumenatal bars of the movement with Rilling - it may help you to get what I'm gesturing towards.


Now my  suggestion is that Harnoncourt's interpretation is better. Maybe there's some theological reasons behind Rilling's approach - I haven't gone that deeply into it.

By the way, at the back of my mind as I'm typing this are some ideas that Busoni wrote about, about expressing emotion in musical performance rather than actually suffering that emotion. Expressing anger when playng Wilde Jagd, rather than actually being angry. If I had time I'd investigate this more.

Oh, and thanks to you and everyine else for quite a stimulating little discussion.

[Mandryka]

If there is such a thing as the right tempo for the aria, my preferred tempo comes out to about 6 minutes in length.  Koopman and Suzuki are on target.

Again, I have to object to the premise that the tempo greatly affects the projected mood of the soprano voice.

How do people decide what right tempo is? I mean is it taste, i.e. random? is it emotion?  But then you want to deny the link between tempo and emotion I think. Or something else?

[Sammy]

How do people decide what right tempo is? I mean is it taste, i.e. random? is it emotion?  But then you want to deny the link between tempo and emotion I think. Or something else?

Right tempo?  That's for each person to decide.

I do deny any direct link between tempo and particular emotions.  It's what performers do with a chosen tempo that counts.  Does a slower than average tempo necessarily result in greater emotional depth, more comfort, etc.?  It all depends on the performers.

[knight66]

In Bach a great deal of the choral music is at a speed that relates to dance. So if you cannot imagine the opening chorus of the St Matthew, for instance, as a dance movement it is too slow. This is not an invariable rule, but I have linked below a list of movements from the cantatas that are based on dance rhythms.

Lifting the rhythms, pointing them, can give the impression that the speed is faster than it is and flattening the rhythms has the effect of making the tempo seem slow. The actual speed is therefore deceptive. It is often what phrasing is drawn out within the tempo that gives it a feel of rightness rather than a metronomic approach.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Dance.htm

Mike

[knight66]

If I suggested that there isn't misery in Auger/Rilling then I didn't mean to, sorry. What I think is that their vision is one of consolation. It's as if I'm crying, and I go to someone who's also crying, and we hug each other. Or if not crying substitute some other negative emotion.

Just imagine going to Harnoncourt and his boy for nice warm consoling hug. No chance, his vision has no warmth in it.

Even though we are looking for different things from the music, I think your description of the Rilling is very apt. I did say I thought that there were differing legitimate routes in the music. I was thinking of the St Matthew Passion as I mentioned it elsewhere. It ends with the Good Friday Crucifixion, not with a message of hope. BUT, look closely at the final ensemble chorale and what Bach does is he provides a tender leavetaking where the soloists bow out saying a gentle good night to their saviour. It is a really rather odd idea which we accept because we have known the music for a long time. But the point I am making is that in this darkest circumstance Bach leave us with some benedictory consolation and I believe that was a part of his musical and theological makeup.

He looks at and examins grief, fear etc, but he does not leave us in that state and I feel that Rilling, integrating the discussed aria within a cantata of contrasts, has provided a performance that brings you consolation within difficulty.

Mike

[DavidW]

I notice that bwv 105 is not on the list that you linked Mike.  Nothing very dance like there, which is not to say that the music isn't rhythmic.  Also the article seems to be about period style performance incorrectly interpreting a movement is dance like in the signature, when the music is not actually supposed to be played that way.  I will say that I think that Herreweghe, Kuijken and Suzuki are mindful of the appropriate atmosphere and don't play somber music as if it is a dance (nor would they play uplifting music as if it's a funeral dirge).